Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Skwim]

He cannot simply snap His fingers and forgive those who are not sorry, nor want forgiveness.

How do you know he can't? I thought god could do whatever he wanted to.

And if he can't, how about those who are sorry and want forgiveness? Why couldn't he snap his fingers for them?

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[InChrist]

How do you know he can't? I thought god could do whatever he wanted to.

And if he can't, how about those who are sorry and want forgiveness? Why couldn't he snap his fingers for them?

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God cannot do what goes against His own holy character, which includes justice. He can't just snap His fingers because justice requires consequences. How many judges in a courtroom snap their fingers and ignore the law even when someone is sorry?

 

[leapfrog7]

Genesis 3:15 (ESV)
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”​

Or, as it reads in the Easy-to-Read Version

Genesis 3:15 (ERV)
I will make you and the woman enemies to each other. Your children and her children will be enemies. You will bite her child’s foot, but he will crush your head.”
​

Okay, maybe my mind has gone into neutral, but I don't see anything here where the savior is prophesied. Care to point it out?



Only until it's addressed, and that's all I'm waiting for: One answer that address the question. The "why." Not the "How" or the "what."


Okay, Okay, you don't know the answer. Probably would have helped if you had said that at the outset.




So what? This still isn't answering the question of why god bothered with the Jesus scheme rather than snapping his fingers.

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Most theologians understand that this child, the HE will crush your head. is in fact the Seed of the woman, in the future is Christ!

 

[leapfrog7]

Truthfully? Your comment only makes the whole thing much much worse.

IF you truly believe your god created everything from scratch, and exactly as planned?

Then?

He's a deliberate monster: In that he created humans deliberately so they could fail! And worse! He knew it before he created them!

But wait-- your god punishes people for being exactly as he created them to be!

That's horrible!

Not to be outdone, he then deliberately creates torture-porn, sacrificing himself to appease himself for the rules he himself created in the first place...!

Just to be human I never take rebuke to heart!
So if you are a unbeliever, with enmity toward the very thought of a God, why would you make statement's with malice toward a God you do not believe in?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

True, a contrite heart God wants, but He also had a High priest go into the Holy of Holies once a year with the sacrifice of animals.

Did David go to a priest in order to get forgiven? No, he simply confessed his sin, and Nathan pronounced him forgiven.

Don't you think it is far better to go to the person you have sinned against and make things right with them and seek THEIR forgiveness?

 

[Skwim]

Most theologians understand that this child, the HE will crush your head. is in fact the Seed of the woman, in the future is Christ!

Somehow I get a strong feeling you know no such thing.

God cannot do what goes against His own holy character, which includes justice. He can't just snap His fingers because justice requires consequences. How many judges in a courtroom snap their fingers and ignore the law even when someone is sorry?

As I pointed out to 1robin, how just and loving---character traits ascribed to god---is it that those whose parents failed to obey his commands should be gobbled up by mom and dad on orders from god.

Leviticus 26:29
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

or as the ERV bluntly puts it:
29 You will become so hungry that you will eat the bodies of your sons and daughters.
​

OR

2 Kings 2:23-24
23 [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel. As he was traveling up the road, some young boys came out of the city and made fun of him, saying, “Go on up, baldy! Go on up, baldy!” 24 When he turned around and saw them, he called God’s judgment down on them. Two female bears came out of the woods and ripped forty-two of the boys to pieces.
​

So, just and loving? Of course not. All of which proves god isn't above going against his own holy character when he feels like it. So lets hear no more about how bound god is to his principles or holy nature. He ain't!

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[Kenny]

First of all, I'm curious as to where in Genesis the savior is prophesied. A chapter and verse will do. Secondly, you still have not answered my "why" question,Why Was Jesus Necessary? as opposed to god accomplishing the same result with a snap of his fingers. Here you have only addressed the "what happened?" issue, which I'm pretty familiar with. Of course, if you don't know or can't figure out a plausible reason, fine, but for now I'm good with the what happened part.

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Johnathan Targum Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.

God could not just "snap His fingers" because of multiple reasons.

1. He established in Gen 1 that it was through man that authority is wielded in the earth... thus he had to come as a man
2. You can eliminate the fruit (sin) but next year a new crop would appear. He had to deal with the root.
3. Man has free will, He still gives man choice.

I'm sure there is more.

 

[Kenny]

Did David go to a priest in order to get forgiven? No, he simply confessed his sin, and Nathan pronounced him forgiven.

Don't you think it is far better to go to the person you have sinned against and make things right with them and seek THEIR forgiveness?

Yes, Dave was forgiven because of a contrite heart. This one ought to do but not at the expense of the other. There still was a High-Priest that came that year to place blood on the Arc of the Covenant.

After all, he couldn't go to the person he sinned against since he was murdered.

And, why did he sacrifice so many animals as he brought the Arc to Jerusalem?

 

[Kenny]

Did David go to a priest in order to get forgiven? No, he simply confessed his sin, and Nathan pronounced him forgiven.

Don't you think it is far better to go to the person you have sinned against and make things right with them and seek THEIR forgiveness?

Do you think David told the High Priest not to go into the Holy of Holies for the WHOLE of the nation of Israel?

 

[Skwim]

God could not just "snap His fingers" because of multiple reasons.

1. He established in Gen 1 that it was through man that authority is wielded in the earth... thus he had to come as a man

What authority? If you're saying that god gave man sole responsibility to run the earth, he certainly had no problem stepping in now and then to take over the operation.

You can eliminate the fruit (sin) but next year a new crop would appear. He had to deal with the root.

A snap of the fingers would do the trick. This is the all-powerful god we're talking about you know: anything is possible..

Man has free will, He still gives man choice.

So what? (not that I buy into free will) This doesn't make any sense. Before A&E brought the walls crashing down weren't they supposed to live in peace with your free will?

 

[Kenny]

What authority? If you're saying that god gave man sole responsibility to run the earth, he certainly had no problem stepping in now and then to take over the operation.

Yes, through covenants where man opened the door. Covenants started in chapter 3 of Genesis where God shed the blood of animals after declaring the Messiah (Gen 3:15) and clothing them in animal skins (that what He does) instead of fig leaves (man's attempt to fix their problems through religion and philosophies) ... a type and shadow of God clothing us with His righteousness, not through works, it is a gift from God through the blood of Jesus

A snap of the fingers would do the trick. This is the all-powerful god we're talking about you know: anything is possible..

not outside the spiritual laws.

So what? (not that I buy into free will) This doesn't make any sense. Before A&E brought the walls crashing down weren't they supposed to live in peace with your free will?

Hmmm.. here you say you don't buy free will... a free will choice!

They were free before they decided to crash down God's blessings.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, through covenants where man opened the door. Covenants started in chapter 3 of Genesis where God shed the blood of animals after declaring the Messiah (Gen 3:15) and clothing them in animal skins (that what He does) instead of fig leaves (man's attempt to fix their problems through religion and philosophies) ... a type and shadow of God clothing us with His righteousness, not through works, it is a gift from God through the blood of Jesus

Sorry, but I don't buy your exceedingly strained interpretation of Gen. 3:15. Which, IMO, is quite silly.

not outside the spiritual laws.

Which are written where and say what?

Hmmm.. here you say you don't buy free will... a free will choice!

Yup.

.They were free before they decided to crash down God's blessings.

Still waiting for your answer to my question.

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[URAVIP2ME]

How do you know he can't? I thought god could do whatever he wanted to.
And if he can't, how about those who are sorry and want forgiveness? Why couldn't he snap his fingers for them?

I find, since the God of the Bible is a God of Justice, then He abides by Justice. God is Not a lawbreaker.
God wanted all of us to be descendants of Adam and Eve as per Genesis 1:28.
God would Not break His Law of Genesis 2:17 that to eat that forbidden fruit would bring about death.
In order to undo the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon us mankind would need a ransom.
God's Law is higher than man's law, and that is why God right away provided the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15.
What Adam did would be undone by that promised ' seed ' or offspring aka Jesus Christ.
Since we are all born ' after ' father Adam sinned none of us can provide that ransom price and be a Messsiah.
In order to measure anything we need standard to go by. Adam started out sinless. Jesus started out sinless.
Thus in Jesus we have a corresponding sinless person to Adam, so Christ himself is the measuring standard to go by.
A sinless Jesus could balance the Scales of Justice for us which sinner Adam unbalanced. - 1 John 1:7.
Under favorable conditions Adam proved unfaithful. Under Adverse conditions Jesus proved faithful.
Since Satan did Not want Jesus to die faithful is why Satan threw everything at Jesus so he would Not die for us.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry, but I don't buy your exceedingly strained interpretation of Gen. 3:15. Which, IMO, is quite silly.

And yet I quoted the Jonathan Targum. I can't help if what was written you view as silly.

"Targum Jonathan (Hebrew: תרגום יונתן בן עוזיאל‬), otherwise referred to as Targum Yonasan/Yonatan, is the official eastern (Babylonian) targum to the Nevi'im. Its early origins, however, are western (i.e. from the Land of Israel), and the Talmudic tradition attributes its authorship to Jonathan ben Uzziel, a pupil of Hillel, a doctor of the Law at Jerusalem in the time of King Herod"

a Jewish manuscript, not to mention I can quote quite a few commentaries.

Which are written where and say what?

1) God gave man the dominion on the earth. Gen 1:26--28; Psalms 115:16
2) God doesn't lie. Heb 6:18

and others, depending on what you want to know about.

Still waiting for your answer to my question.

can you rephrase?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?
Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance?
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I find Matthew 20:28 lets us know Jesus is a 'ransom' price for our sins, thus opening up forgiveness for all.
Adam was unfaithful under favorable conditions. Jesus proved faithful under very bad conditions.
So, Jesus, and also Job, proved faithful under adverse conditions proving Satan a liar.
Satan at Job 2:4-5 challenges ALL of us ' touch our flesh...' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.
We can all prove Satan to be the liar that he is.

Those who died before Jesus (John 3:13) can have a 'healthy physical resurrection' back to live life on Earth.
To me Jesus makes the playing field level. Only those committing the unforgivable sin are Not forgiven.- Matt. 12:32.
Persons who died before Jesus can have an equal chance via the coming resurrection as per Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Adam was a human and No animal could equal a human, and No sinning human could equal a sinless Adam.
Adam started out sinless, but since father Adam fathered children ' after ' he sinned we are born with imperfection.
So, none of us could correspond to a sinless Adam, but a sinless Jesus could.
Sinless Jesus could balance the Scales of Justice for us.

Jesus does call some persons to heaven such as those of Luke 22:28-30, but the majority of mankind can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.
So, the promise of everlasting life does include everlasting life on Earth. Living forever on Earth.
That is why Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth (Not Heaven) - Psalms 37:9-11.
At that time, No one will say, " I am sick..."- Isaiah 33:24. That is because according to Revelation 22:2 mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations. Playing field will be level.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.

 

[Skwim]

And yet I quoted the Jonathan Targum. I can't help if what was written you view as silly.

Obviously you quote it because you believe it, but is this really where you now go for your Bible scriptures? Not the Bible itself, but Targum Jonathan?

1) God gave man the dominion on the earth. Gen 1:26--28; Psalms 115:16
2) God doesn't lie. Heb 6:18

Well, the Genesis verses certainly don't read like spiritual laws. They read like descriptions of what god did. However, the one from Hebrews does appear to be a restriction (law?---one has to wonder who created it) on god. He cannot tell a lie, but I don't see this as preventing him from snapping his fingers.

can you rephrase?

"Before A&E brought the walls crashing down weren't they supposed to live in peace with your free will?"

 

[1robin]

It really doesn't make any sense when you consider the stories of the Old Testament.

One would think Jesus would have been sent down at the time of Adam and Eve rather than go through scriptural volumes depicting the floods, plagues , wars, exterminations, and then, after all that, send Jesus down afterwards?

A few things you must have missed in Sunday school.

1. The promise that Jesus would come along to right all men's wrongs in a permanent sense is give right at the beginning of the bible. Where is says that because of Eve's fall Satan would bruise Christ's heal (on the cross) but Christ would crush Satan's head. So the promise existed right where you say you missed it.
2. So why did Christ wait for several thousand years before he showed up.
A. It does not matter when he came what he did applied to all of time historical and future.
B. The bible says that Christ was only sent in the fullness of sin. Well what does that mean?
* He came when a civilization wide network of roads existed.
* He came when most of the world was united in the languages of Latin and Greek.
* He came when the silk road spread tales of anything that happened in rapid fashion.
* He came right before the world population exploded exponentially. Over 95% of humans have lived post Christ and what he did applied to the other 5% retroactively anyway.

I think God's timing is far better than yours would have been.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


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The Question isn't, Why did God even bother with Jesus, The Question is, Why God come down here in the body of Christ Jesus.
The reason why God came down here in the body of Jesus, All because God was not going to send no more Prophets, God came down here himself, to give his Message straight to people himself.

First you have two playing field's

One being God's playing field
And the other playing field is Satan's.

Now it's up to each and everyone to chose which playing field you want to play on.

For God to be fair and Just, God let Satan play out his game.

If God would have destroyed Satan right from the start, everyone would be to afraid of God, thinking if we step out of line, God will destroy us too.
So God let Satan play out his game.

So that everyone can have witness how destructive Satan's way is.

When things get to far out of hand, As they have done, God steps in. To correct them in the error of their ways.

It's not God's fault, because people chose to do evil. That's the people's fault.

You have the choice to jump into the fire or walk around the fire.
Because people chose's to jump in the fire, that's no one's fault but theirs, they had the choice given to them to walk around the fire.
But as it is, people will not take Responsibility for their own actions, But want to blame someone else.

Look you have people who build their house's on the fault line of a earthquake,
And you some people that build their house's around volcanoes.

Then you have people saying why did God let this happen, The question is, Why did you build in and around those places.
You knew those places were dangerous, but yet you still build your house there.

Don't blame God for your neglected the warnings.

 

[Kenny]

Obviously you quote it because you believe it, but is this really where you now go for your Bible scriptures? Not the Bible itself, but Targum Jonathan?

Actually, it is a Jewish understanding so if you don't agree with what they understood, what do you want me to do? It is Bible as expressed and explained by the Jewish writers in the NT

It is true that some Jewish believe that it is Messianic and others do not but definitely it isn't just my interpretation

Jewish Positions or Objections

" The rabbis are divided regarding the significance of Genesis 3:15 . They are trying hard to avoid the implications of the singular individual position. However, we are not alone. Rabbi Tanchuma and Rabbi Kimchi and the Targumim state this is a Messianic verse. As a result, our position is well within a Jewish understanding of the prophecy. The Messiah will be a human being, a male. However, He will be of a unique birth because He will also be a supernatural person. In fact, He will be the God/man who will defeat Satan. The Messianic person will be bruised in this battle, but He will victoriously crush Satan’s head."

Well, the Genesis verses certainly don't read like spiritual laws. They read like descriptions of what god did. However, the one from Hebrews does appear to be a restriction (law?---one has to wonder who created it) on god. He cannot tell a lie, but I don't see this as preventing him from snapping his fingers.

OK... I don't agree for the reasons stated but you certainly can disagree.

"Before A&E brought the walls crashing down weren't they supposed to live in peace with your free will?"

with "my" free will? You still are leaving me with not understanding.

 

[Skwim]

The Question isn't, Why did God even bother with Jesus, The Question is, Why God come down here in the body of Christ Jesus.

Nope. Go back to the Title and OP and reread them.

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