Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[wellwisher]

Sin does not exist apart from the law. If there is no law for a given behavior, there is no sin. Law defines sin. As an example, many states in the US have made marijuana legal. In these states, there is no sin for using marijuana. It is only a sin in those states where it is still illegal. This is not rational. This shows that not all law is universal and objective.

The problem with law; tree of knowledge of good and evil, is it can be subjective or objective, as the example above shows. Objective law, like laws of gravity is the same for all. The same is true of God's law. Manmade law is not designed to be the same for all.

Subjective law is manmade law. Why should one group of people be called sinners and the other group of people, not, for the very same thing? Why fill some people with self hate and fear for things, that are not objective. While others; Hillary Clinton, can break the same law and not sin.

Jesus taught forgiveness of sin, since not all law is God's law. Humans have a tendency to stack the law deck in their political favor, using subjective law to control people, via the emotional baggage of sin. If you forgive yourself for sinning under subjective law, you will be better off. This goes along with faith in the spirit, which allows one to act without subjective censor, in hopes for the best; no sin.

 

[BSM1]

A few parts of it, way way back when I was young and veloceraptors roamed the earth. I deeply enjoy comparative religion and have read a great many of the world's sacred texts. I have never read the Upanishads -- that's on my to do list-- and of course there are more sutras and native folklore than I could ever get through in my life time.

It's not actually the content that I object to. It's the audacity of taking old ideas and rehashing them and then marketing it. It would be like telling a "new" Native American Myth, or writing a new Epistle of Paul.

Eye of the beholder, I guess...

 

[wellwisher]

Another reason why Jesus was necessary, has to do with his death and resurrection. This was a legal strategy used to neutralize the power of law and sin. Jesus beat law and sin at its own game.

According to the law, death is the ultimate penalty for sin. If the punishment comes down to the death penalty, there is no further legal obligation from the defendant. One is dead, so what further punishment can be made? You can't torture a dead man.

When Jesus is killed as legal punishment, he is freed from all obligation from law. His resurrection makes him the same person, but now a person who is free from the law. He is no longer under the power and authority of the lord of the earth; Satan.

Not much later, in the symbolism of Revelations, Satan is thrown from heaven, since he was out foxed by Jesus. Satan has no legal authority over Jesus, based on the rules of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Jesus teaches being reborn, he is teaching this legal strategy; sons of God. The resurrection from the dead creates a free man, who is free from original sin; law of good and evil.

 

[Duke_Leto]

For Jesus' purpose to be sacrificed for our sins makes Jesus an afterthought. There is an alternative reason, other than atonement.
Incarnation is God's first thought, the original design for all creation. In this model God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation in solidarity with man. This is the model presented by Duns Scotus, in the Church now Blessed Duns Scotus.

Thank you.

 

[whirlingmerc]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or get, the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

A God of power without the love and mercy of Jesus is a bit like Baal
I notice in Psalm 146 there are the praiseworthy deeds of the God of Jacob and they are all
the job description of the Messiah from Isaiah 61 read by Jesus in Luke 4
The Doxological Coda to Psalms

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You have a few good questions here but you ought to be satisfied with the straightforward answers I can provide in response. Please read this carefully as few questions like yours come with solutions this comprehensive and elegant. No other faith even comes close. For example Allah simply hand waves some of our sins away based on his fickle preferences. Christianity has a much more just, sufficient, and comprehensive solution to sin.

1. God (being perfectly just) cannot let us into heaven with a whole list of sins (and the unimaginable costs they produced) accredited to our account. God could not let imperfect creatures into heaven because he would just be turning his heaven into the same train wreck we have made out of this life.
2. God can only let perfect people into his heaven but we are not perfect so how can God accomplish all this?
3. God must let sinners in to ruin heaven or somehow make us into perfect people.
4. God is both just and loving so whatever he does must satisfy both attributes.
5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished, his loving nature means he needs to remedy this situation so that imperfect people may enter heaven. This is why Christ's roll was necessary.

CRIST'S NECESSITY AND SUBSTATUTIONARY ATONEMENT.

A. We have absolutely nothing which can make up for the sins we committed and the damage they caused. God is the only one who can make that right but sins must be punished or God is no longer just. So God needs to produce a substitute for our selves who will pay for our sins.
B. So God provided a sacrificial lamp (to which his earlier animal sacrifices hinted would occur in the future). Christ was that willing sacrifice.
C. While on the cross all of God's justice was poured out on Christ (keep in mind Christ volunteered to do this). Christ paid the entire price to satisfy God's justice and wrath so we would not have to. What was this wrath that Christ endured? The suffering on the cross and his complete separation from God (the father). IOW he endured the hell our sins deserved.
D. The beauty of God's provision was that God paid the price our sins deserve and for those that believe his perfect (sinless) record was transferred to us so that we can enter heaven with a sinless record deserving of an eternity in heaven.
E. So for believers our sin was accredited to Christ and his righteousness was accredited to Christ.
F. Now you might say Christ got screwed in this deal but because he had no record of any sins actually committed by him to once he paid the price he volunteered to undergo he could just march right back into God's presence due to the lack of any sin he actually committed.

Despite my poor efforts to explain this (and the fact I must be brief) surely you can still see the perfectly elegant provision God supplied to the most substantial problem in human history.

A few things to keep in mind as you review the above.

* Substitutionary atonement is where ones debt is placed on another and what one earned is transferred to another.
* What Christ endured in our place is not physical death it is (second death) spiritual death (being severed from God and everything his existence comes with).
* Christ chose this roll he was not required to do so.
* No greater form of love exists that self sacrifice. We build museums and give metal to humans who sacrificed a lot less for a much smaller gain.

I can't do this unique concept full justice even if I sat here typing for years so I will have to stop somewhere. Even if you have no spiritual faith surely you can see how harmonious, mystifying, and elegant God's solution to man's problem actually was. No other faith has anything so mystically beautiful and substitutionary atonement.

To Sum Up: The god you believe in? Is Weak, Inept and Rigid.

And not very creative, either: mere mortals can come up with at least a dozen alternatives that do not require BRUTAL TORTURE/MURDER.

Oh well-- that's what you get from Bronze Age Mythology: Primitive Brutality.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or get, the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

Although I agree with the OP pretty consistently? I suppose I ought to share one possible solution to the conundrum, as faced by Progressive Christian Theology (which rejects hell/sin/born-sinner/etc).

(Now, I should also point out, this isn't *my* view, but I did find it Interesting-with-an-I. I hope I argue it faithfully to the ideas anyhow... here goes)

_______________________________________________

Why did Jesus have to die? What was the point, if you reject the idea of a Punishing God in the first place, why even let the whole Jesus story play out?

Human Nature. As Humans, we appear to experience deep feelings of regret and guilt-- so much so, it can literally ruin our daily lives, so burdened we can become with these feelings. A life lived entirely in Guilt, can be a terrible life indeed.

So, God, being Supremely Loving? Offers up a part of himself, a Son if you will, and allows the humans to Murder That Part, so they can feel relief from Guilt.

In short, it was humans who demanded a Sacrifice of God, not the other way around. (She's a Witch! Burn her!)

And God, being Loving, permitted it to happen: "See how much I love you people? I let you take my Son, and torture him, then kill him."

But. Being God, he did not let the story end there, where it would have, had humans been writing the narrative.

After the Brutal Murder? God comes back on the scene: "Okay, you've had your Sacrifice, which We Allowed, so that you may feel Relief. But, since I Am God? I will take it One Step Further: I will Overcome even Death Itself, I will Show You Loving by raising my Son Back from the Dead, as I will raise You Back from the Dead Too (one day)."

______________________________

That's pretty close-- re-reading what I wrote, it's close to what I remember of the argument. I did take some liberties with the conversational style.

Again, I would point out, the above isn't MY theology: I'm an unbeliever myself. But, many members within my extended family, are Progressive Theists, and it's not far from what they might have said.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished, his loving nature means he needs to remedy this situation so that imperfect people may enter heaven. This is why Christ's roll was necessary.

But punishing people for crimes they didn't commit is unjust.

 

[Audie]

Paul, our favorite religious fanatic, explains it well.

The "f" word is "fake".

 

[leapfrog7]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or get, the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

As I am new here, I have read through the responses so as to not repeat any other's statements!
First we need to realize, that God created Adam in His Image, then the fall, exiled from the Garden, then Adam and Eve begin to have Children. Genesis 5:3 Adam lived 130 years, and Begot a son in HIS OWN likeness, after His own Likeness? after the fall they lost the likeness of God, and began to produce children in the likeness of sin! from that point on all mankind has sin coursing through their Vain's!

God cleansed the Earth by the Flood, and then start's a new through Abraham!
Back in the day's of Abraham, men would make agreement's with each other, the most Serious Agreement's were called Blood-Covenant's, they would kill an animal or several animal's, let the blood pool in a natural trough, and then the two would walk in the blood, and declare their Promise's to each other, with the understanding, that if one or the other broke the promise, they would be killed just as the animal's were, Serious, very Serious Oath's!
Genesis 15: 9-18. Please read! you will see that only God walked between the animals, in the blood, At this Point God took on both side's of this Covenant.- If I God break this covenant surly I should suffer as these animal's, and If you Abraham or your decedent's break this covenant, surly I God will suffer as these animal's. Abraham was in a trance, he never participated in the sealing of the covenant!
Later Abraham is instructed to sacrifice Isaac, the very shadow of the Son of God.
I hope that I have kept it Simple, you see God is very legal, a Covenant is a binding Contract!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's my belief that none of Jesus' believers/followers of the time actually expected him to die. He was probably thought to be the one who could "go the distance." So when he did die, they had to come up with some fantastical explanation for it. Something that tried to tie it all up and put a bow on it to make sure the legacy wasn't tarnished. As to why there are mentions of premonition about the death within the accounts of the apostles - that's easy to explain. Just ask yourself - how easy would it be to add a few lines of text to your testimony after the fact saying you knew something was destined to happen all along? Or even saying that Jesus himself alluded to it. Something like that lends credibility to your account, and makes it seem that much more mystical - and you avoid having a grave and disturbing end to something you felt unfathomable passion for, but got cut short because human "authorities" bested what you thought was the "power of god" right before your eyes.

This would also explain why all those supposed references to Christ's crucifixion that Christians like to pull out of the Old Testament are so very vague, and nigh untenable. Because they AREN'T references to the crucifixion. They are hand-picked verses that have just a smidge of comparison to the event in question, so they are plucked up as hopefuls for "prophecy" by a crowd wholly eager to prove the righteousness of their claims.

 

[Skwim]

Although I agree with the OP pretty consistently? I suppose I ought to share one possible solution to the conundrum, as faced by Progressive Christian Theology (which rejects hell/sin/born-sinner/etc).

(Now, I should also point out, this isn't *my* view, but I did find it Interesting-with-an-I. I hope I argue it faithfully to the ideas anyhow... here goes)

_______________________________________________

Why did Jesus have to die? What was the point, if you reject the idea of a Punishing God in the first place, why even let the whole Jesus story play out?

Human Nature. As Humans, we appear to experience deep feelings of regret and guilt-- so much so, it can literally ruin our daily lives, so burdened we can become with these feelings. A life lived entirely in Guilt, can be a terrible life indeed.

About various things, yes, perhaps, but hardly very many of us. At least none of my associates seems to live a life entirely in Guilt, or any guilt for that matter.

So, God, being Supremely Loving? Offers up a part of himself, a Son if you will, and allows the humans to Murder That Part, so they can feel relief from Guilt.

In short, it was humans who demanded a Sacrifice of God, not the other way around. (She's a Witch! Burn her!)

Honestly, this doesn't make any sense.

That's pretty close-- re-reading what I wrote, it's close to what I remember of the argument. I did take some liberties with the conversational style.

Again, I would point out, the above isn't MY theology: I'm an unbeliever myself. But, many members within my extended family, are Progressive Theists, and it's not far from what they might have said.

Understood, and thanks for your input.

.

 

[Skwim]

As I am new here, I have read through the responses so as to not repeat any other's statements!
First we need to realize, that God created Adam in His Image, then the fall, exiled from the Garden, then Adam and Eve begin to have Children. Genesis 5:3 Adam lived 130 years, and Begot a son in HIS OWN likeness, after His own Likeness? after the fall they lost the likeness of God, and began to produce children in the likeness of sin! from that point on all mankind has sin coursing through their Vain's!

God cleansed the Earth by the Flood, and then start's a new through Abraham!
Back in the day's of Abraham, men would make agreement's with each other, the most Serious Agreement's were called Blood-Covenant's, they would kill an animal or several animal's, let the blood pool in a natural trough, and then the two would walk in the blood, and declare their Promise's to each other, with the understanding, that if one or the other broke the promise, they would be killed just as the animal's were, Serious, very Serious Oath's!
Genesis 15: 9-18. Please read! you will see that only God walked between the animals, in the blood, At this Point God took on both side's of this Covenant.- If I God break this covenant surly I should suffer as these animal's, and If you Abraham or your decedent's break this covenant, surly I God will suffer as these animal's. Abraham was in a trance, he never participated in the sealing of the covenant!
Later Abraham is instructed to sacrifice Isaac, the very shadow of the Son of God.
I hope that I have kept it Simple, you see God is very legal, a Covenant is a binding Contract!

Welcome to RF, leapfrog7. It's always nice to have a new face around; however, I fail to see how your post addresses my question.

.

 

[arthra]

"Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"

In the context of the time the Passover was observed:

Offer the passover in order, and make ready the sacrifices
for your brethren, and keep the passover according to the
commandment of the Lord, which was given unto Moses.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Esdras 1)

2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

(Gospel of John)

In opposing the sacrifice Jesus Himself became the "sacrifice".

"For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us..."

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians 5:7)

 

[pearl]

I hope that I have kept it Simple, you see God is very legal, a Covenant is a binding Contract!

Thus, to 'cut a covenant'
And it is God who is bound by the covenant with Abraham, by his own word. it is unconditional, irrevocable and eternal.

 

[lukethethird]

Thus, to 'cut a covenant'
And it is God who is bound by the covenant with Abraham, by his own word. it is unconditional, irrevocable and eternal.

Yes, all very true, until a new covenant came to light.

 

[Etritonakin]

It is not only a matter of forgiving sins, but enabling everyone to overcome sin -and creating a literal future government from those who overcome sin (beginning on earth, but eventually including the "heavens" which were "formed to be inhabited").

The plan for doing so is outlined by the biblical holy days.

Christ was/is necessary for us, but it was necessary for him to do what he did for his and the Father's sake/for the sake of their overall plan.

Christ was proved by his suffering and death. "Worthy is the lamb that was slain".
He overcame sin by remaining without sin even when tempted and suffering.
It was also very important that such be witnessed by men -so that none can say he does not know what it is like to be a man -or to suffer.
"and the government shall be upon his shoulders".
He is called "the firstborn of many brethren" -and those made immortal (the children of God") at his return will literally reign with him on earth as kings and priests.
In order for their to be a future "paradise" forever on earth and beyond, we must become/be made incorruptible, as Christ was shown to be incorruptible -so the state of the present world will not continue outward and forever.

Though not as apparent as when he was flesh, what he has been doing since he died and was raised is even more important -as he -the promised Comforter -by the spirit of God (which was not widely given before Christ was raised) -is working with those firstfruits called to the first resurrection -who repent, are baptized and receive God's spirit within them (it is first with them,then in them) to be the beginning of the literal government of God.

John 14:
15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

His suffering/death was both an act which showed his sincerity, intent, worthiness, etc. -to also show us how it was done -knowing that many would be similarly treated by men and proven by God -and a practical step in a plan which would remove sin from us forever -so that we do not do that which would require forgiveness.

 

[leapfrog7]

Welcome to RF, leapfrog7. It's always nice to have a new face around; however, I fail to see how your post addresses my question.

.

OK, I will try to make sense, the Savior was Prophesied, first in the Garden, then his revelation was given to Abraham, thus the Shadow of future event's - Isaac's sacrifice [ the son being the lamb]. At Mount Sinai God declared that He would raise up a Prophet like Himself [God] and then at the same time states that He would raise up a Prophet like Moses, both from the decedent's of Israel, from their countrymen! After the giving of the Commandment's at Mount Sinai, the people broke the Covenant, which was sealed by the sprinkling of blood! another form of a blood contract!
Now we have two event's that need repair, Satan gain's the Earth which was under Adam's charge!
The people break the Covenant at Mount Sinai, which incur's the death penalty. God wanted to smoke all the people at that time, but Moses plea's for their life.
So we have the Son of God and a descendent of Abraham, in One Person, Created in the womb of a Jewish woman of the lineage of David, and also a part of God! To hold to these binding Contract's, Covenant's!!!
Who Else, that Imho is why!

 

[leapfrog7]

Thus, to 'cut a covenant'
And it is God who is bound by the covenant with Abraham, by his own word. it is unconditional, irrevocable and eternal.

Yes, not many today understand Eternal!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?"

In the context of the time the Passover was observed:

Offer the passover in order, and make ready the sacrifices
for your brethren, and keep the passover according to the
commandment of the Lord, which was given unto Moses.

(Deuterocanonical Apocrypha, Esdras 1)

2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

(Gospel of John)

In opposing the sacrifice Jesus Himself became the "sacrifice".

"For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us..."

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians 5:7)

By “the Commandment of the Lord,” you’re talking about the body of laws that the ancient Jews proclaimed as given by God?

The one that forbade human sacrifice?

That “Commandment?”