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Why Two Sexes?

Double Fine

From parts unknown
The chances of a contact between 2 organisms are a lot higher than the chances of a simultaneous or near-simultaneous contact between 3 or more.
Yes. If I may add to this, there are pros and cons associated with the amount of genders involved.

The fewer the genders, the easier it is to reproduce, but you are limited to a smaller gene pool. The more genders there are, the more genetic information is available, but that comes at the cost of complexity.

Asexual reproduction has the benefit of simplicity, but it's drawback is that very few traits can be added. Trisexual, Quadrisexual etc (?) reproduction would have the benefit of a varied gene pool, but comes at the immense cost of complexity.

Sexual reproduction, on the other hand, allows for a huge amount of genetic information in the gene pool, especially when we compound that over multiple generations. It is also fairly simple, requiring only one male and one female.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Ooh boy. I think I am going to get an awful amount of backlash on this, but here we go.

Okay so to summarise the claim here: you get a male neurotype to go with the male parts and a female neurotype to go with the female parts. And then we have those people that may have a male brain with a female part - which we call intergender, intersex etc. Have I got that broadly right?

You make a statement near the end, which I would like to address:



In nature, the "male brain" almost always goes with the male body and ditto for the females. Non-conforming individuals are eliminated; either they are killed or ousted by their pack/pride/clan, or they simply never pass their genes.

In humans, this is different. We don't kill the old and the weak, nor do we kill those not conforming to the neurotype (not in civilised countries, at least) and if you were born with a female neurotype in a male body, you could lead a safe and happy life in the Western world; you can even pass your genes on.

The Darwinian world is one of survival of the fittest (or in some cases, the luckiest) and in that world, individuals that don't conform simplyto the strictest of norms don't get to pass their genes, they get killed by predators, or their mothers abandon them.

Society however, have brought about protection and security to individuals not conforming to the norm; I myself have a cousin who born deaf and I know the struggle to get her into school. We raise the deaf, we raise the blind, we raise the physically weak - we don't abandon them like animals sometimes do.

And in the same vein, we raise gender dysphoric kids, we raise gay kids, etc. In the West at least, we don't abandon them for their non-conformance.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here (you aren't saying anything I find personally objectionable) and I welcome the correction to my generalised point about evolutionary adaption retaining these non-binary traited individuals.

Your summary is basically correct: we have intersexed people whose phenotypes don't match their sexual genotypes.

In addition, we have transgender people whose neurotypes don't match either their genotypes or phenotypes.

Here's an example of the kind of peer-reviewed papers I'm talking about, this one from 2018:


Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

Dr Bakker says, "Although more research is needed, we now have evidence that sexual differentiation of the brain differs in young people with GD, as they show functional brain characteristics that are typical of their desired gender."

And this one from earlier in the year (April 2019):

Sex differences in functional connectivity during fetal brain development - ScienceDirect


Sex-related differences in brain and behavior are apparent across the life course, but the exact set of processes that guide their emergence in utero remains a topic of vigorous scientific inquiry. Here, we evaluate sex and gestational age (GA)-related change in functional connectivity (FC) within and between brain wide networks....

We discovered both within and between network FC-GA associations that varied with sex. Specifically, associations between GA and posterior cingulate-temporal pole and fronto-cerebellar FC were observed in females only, whereas the association between GA and increased intracerebellar FC was stronger in males. These observations confirm that sexual dimorphism in functional brain systems emerges during human gestation.


If studies like the above are right, the implication would be that whilst one's genotype sex is determined chromosomallly at conception, sexual dimorphism in the brain is a secondary process that occurs in utero (in the womb).

This means that gender dysphoria - the feeling that one's gender does not match up with one's physical sex - may be caused by the exposure of foetuses in utero to hormones or indeed foetal insensitivity to certain hormones while in the womb, and that the brains of transpeople neurochemically align with the structure and activation pattern of their 'acquired' gender, and not their natal sex.

Where I would disagree a little, is that I don't think acceptance of these people is just a modern Western civilizational trait.

For whatever reason, our human species has proved particularly adept at finding ways of accomodating them, compared to other species.

The 12th-century Decretum Gratiani was the medieval church's primary codex of canon law until reform in 1918 (for instance).

It recognises three sex categories: male, female and hermaphrodite. Of the latter it establishes a legal doctrine: "Whether an hermaphrodite may witness a testament, depends on which sex prevails" ("Hermafroditus an ad testamentum adhiberi possit, qualitas sexus incalescentis ostendit."):


"...On persons and the divisions of persons.

There six divisions of persons. The first is this one: All humans are either men, or women, or hermaphrodites. […]

Hermaphrodites are those who have both sexes, that is, male and female. For them, the following rule is given: That either the female sex prevails, and they thus are regarded as women, or the male sex prevails, and they thus are regarded as men. Therefore, the threefold division can be reduced to a binary division, because [hermaphrodites] belong to the first [division], if the male sex prevails, or the second, if the female sex prevails.
"

What factors determine which 'sex prevails' in a given person who is intersexed/ambiguous in some way?

Another twelfth century canon lawyer, Huguccio, set out guidelines: "If someone...always wishes to act like a man (excercere virilia) and not like a female, and always wishes to keep company with men and not with women, it is a sign that the male sex prevails in him...If therefore the person is drawn to the feminine more than the male, the person does not receive the order".

In 1271, another influential canon lawyer named Hostiensis likewise argued that hermaphorodites should choose their legal gender under oath:


"I reply: s/he may say which sex s/he chooses, as our diocesan bishop, the bishop of Turin [demanded in this case];; and s/he may swear further- more not to use the other one." (Summa aurea ( n. 66), col. 612)


To reference an academic study on this from 2014 (The two laws and the three sexes: ambiguous bodies in canon law and Roman law (12th to 16th centuries)) by the historians Christof Rolker and Andreas Thier:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.re..._law_and_Roman_law_12th_to_16th_centuries/amp


Canon law in theory and practice did reckon with hermaphrodites as a 'third sex’, bodily distinct from men and women. My overall impression is that law and society weren't overly concerned with unusual genital anatomy and did not scandalize changes of sex or gender. This in practice seems to have given hermaphrodites considerable individual freedom, including a choice of gender, whether they had previously lived as men or women.
In Ancient India, likewise, we find this:

Hijra (South Asia) - Wikipedia

The ancient Kama Sutra mentions the performance of fellatio by feminine people of a third sex (tritiya prakriti).[49] This passage has been variously interpreted as referring to men who desired other men, so-called eunuchs ("those disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females",[50] male and female trans people ("the male takes on the appearance of a female and the female takes on the appearance of the male"),[51] or two kinds of biological males, one dressed as a woman, the other as a man.[52]

Franciscan travelers in the 1650s noted the presence of "Men and boys who dress like women" roaming the streets of Thatta, in modern Pakistan.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
I think the purpose of two sexes is to promote reproduction. There is pleasure in intercourse, which incentivizes species to breed. I'm not sure this exists in asexual reproduction. Is there any studies in population differences over time between sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction? I haven't really studied it.

Then again, I'm probably wrong.
In species that have both sexual and asexual reproduction, asexual reproduction is favored in times of non-stress, (don't fix what isn't broken,) whereas sexual reproduction is resorted to during times of stress. Sexual reproduction is a stress response.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Why do almost all species have only two sexes?
Can only see one clearly obvious answer... If there were only men, how would the dishes and laundry ever be done?

(Now ill just sit back and wait for all the likes :D)

On a more serious note, I think it would be smarter if we were all hermaphrodites. Think about how many issues that could solve in regards to inequality.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
In species that have both sexual and asexual reproduction, asexual reproduction is favored in times of non-stress, (don't fix what isn't broken,) whereas sexual reproduction is resorted to during times of stress. Sexual reproduction is a stress response.

I don't know about reproduction, but sex certainly helps me deal with stress.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
you know though,
that everyone is just going to make up their own good reason for such a question,
and some will be quite well thought out and verifiable and useful.....
but how is that "the reason"?
that's just people making the best out of an ignorant position....
and some people are great to have on the team as they are reasonable and 'accurate',
and one doesn't need to do any mumbo jumbo to replicate or observe what they are talking about
which is the place to start
things in common we can agree about

but since no human sees everything there is to see,
well, you can hopefully see the problem there
 

Double Fine

From parts unknown
I don't disagree with anything you've said here (you aren't saying anything I find personally objectionable) and I welcome the correction to my generalised point about evolutionary adaption retaining these non-binary traited individuals.

Your summary is basically correct: we have intersexed people whose phenotypes don't match their sexual genotypes.

In addition, we have transgender people whose neurotypes don't match either their genotypes or phenotypes.

Here's an example of the kind of peer-reviewed papers I'm talking about, this one from 2018:


Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

Dr Bakker says, "Although more research is needed, we now have evidence that sexual differentiation of the brain differs in young people with GD, as they show functional brain characteristics that are typical of their desired gender."

And this one from earlier in the year (April 2019):

Sex differences in functional connectivity during fetal brain development - ScienceDirect


Sex-related differences in brain and behavior are apparent across the life course, but the exact set of processes that guide their emergence in utero remains a topic of vigorous scientific inquiry. Here, we evaluate sex and gestational age (GA)-related change in functional connectivity (FC) within and between brain wide networks....

We discovered both within and between network FC-GA associations that varied with sex. Specifically, associations between GA and posterior cingulate-temporal pole and fronto-cerebellar FC were observed in females only, whereas the association between GA and increased intracerebellar FC was stronger in males. These observations confirm that sexual dimorphism in functional brain systems emerges during human gestation.


If studies like the above are right, the implication would be that whilst one's genotype sex is determined chromosomallly at conception, sexual dimorphism in the brain is a secondary process that occurs in utero (in the womb).

This means that gender dysphoria - the feeling that one's gender does not match up with one's physical sex - may be caused by the exposure of foetuses in utero to hormones or indeed foetal insensitivity to certain hormones while in the womb, and that the brains of transpeople neurochemically align with the structure and activation pattern of their 'acquired' gender, and not their natal sex.

Where I would disagree a little, is that I don't think acceptance of these people is just a modern Western civilizational trait.

For whatever reason, our human species has proved particularly adept at finding ways of accomodating them, compared to other species.

The 12th-century Decretum Gratiani was the medieval church's primary codex of canon law until reform in 1918 (for instance).

It recognises three sex categories: male, female and hermaphrodite. Of the latter it establishes a legal doctrine: "Whether an hermaphrodite may witness a testament, depends on which sex prevails" ("Hermafroditus an ad testamentum adhiberi possit, qualitas sexus incalescentis ostendit."):


"...On persons and the divisions of persons.

There six divisions of persons. The first is this one: All humans are either men, or women, or hermaphrodites. […]

Hermaphrodites are those who have both sexes, that is, male and female. For them, the following rule is given: That either the female sex prevails, and they thus are regarded as women, or the male sex prevails, and they thus are regarded as men. Therefore, the threefold division can be reduced to a binary division, because [hermaphrodites] belong to the first [division], if the male sex prevails, or the second, if the female sex prevails.
"

What factors determine which 'sex prevails' in a given person who is intersexed/ambiguous in some way?

Another twelfth century canon lawyer, Huguccio, set out guidelines: "If someone...always wishes to act like a man (excercere virilia) and not like a female, and always wishes to keep company with men and not with women, it is a sign that the male sex prevails in him...If therefore the person is drawn to the feminine more than the male, the person does not receive the order".

In 1271, another influential canon lawyer named Hostiensis likewise argued that hermaphorodites should choose their legal gender under oath:


"I reply: s/he may say which sex s/he chooses, as our diocesan bishop, the bishop of Turin [demanded in this case];; and s/he may swear further- more not to use the other one." (Summa aurea ( n. 66), col. 612)


To reference an academic study on this from 2014 (The two laws and the three sexes: ambiguous bodies in canon law and Roman law (12th to 16th centuries)) by the historians Christof Rolker and Andreas Thier:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.re..._law_and_Roman_law_12th_to_16th_centuries/amp


Canon law in theory and practice did reckon with hermaphrodites as a 'third sex’, bodily distinct from men and women. My overall impression is that law and society weren't overly concerned with unusual genital anatomy and did not scandalize changes of sex or gender. This in practice seems to have given hermaphrodites considerable individual freedom, including a choice of gender, whether they had previously lived as men or women.
In Ancient India, likewise, we find this:

Hijra (South Asia) - Wikipedia

The ancient Kama Sutra mentions the performance of fellatio by feminine people of a third sex (tritiya prakriti).[49] This passage has been variously interpreted as referring to men who desired other men, so-called eunuchs ("those disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females",[50] male and female trans people ("the male takes on the appearance of a female and the female takes on the appearance of the male"),[51] or two kinds of biological males, one dressed as a woman, the other as a man.[52]

Franciscan travelers in the 1650s noted the presence of "Men and boys who dress like women" roaming the streets of Thatta, in modern Pakistan.

I totally get you, my man. Oh, and I wasn't correcting, merely spitballing. I think I was replying to you as I was reasoning it out myself at the same time.

Also, regarding the "Western Civilization" points I made, I think I should amend it to "civilised society". Because yes, some eastern people's have been very far ahead of us in these matters.

Methinks when comes to the brain, obviously we can't take a peek in there and say "it's a boy" and be done with it. Signs can manifest themselves over the course of many years - sometimes the person would only be out of school and feel that something is wrong. For people like these, I really have all the sympathy in the world. To go through life, feeling that something is consistently "off" must be terrible. But to only find that out in your late teens or early twenties though? God damn. Whatever the cause - nature or nurture - it is not a situation that I envy at all.
 

Double Fine

From parts unknown
In species that have both sexual and asexual reproduction, asexual reproduction is favored in times of non-stress, (don't fix what isn't broken,) whereas sexual reproduction is resorted to during times of stress. Sexual reproduction is a stress response.
Are there species with both sexual and asexual reproduction? I was not aware
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
you know though,
that everyone is just going to make up their own good reason for such a question,
and some will be quite well thought out and verifiable and useful.....
but how is that "the reason"?
that's just people making the best out of an ignorant position....
and some people are great to have on the team as they are reasonable and 'accurate',
and one doesn't need to do any mumbo jumbo to replicate or observe what they are talking about
which is the place to start
things in common we can agree about

but since no human sees everything there is to see,
well, you can hopefully see the problem there

One word. Sciences.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The generally agreed upon view in the sciences is that sexual reproduction has a survival advantage over asexual reproduction in helping the offspring deal with parasites and diseases. Look it up. Red Queen Hypothesis.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The chances of a contact between 2 organisms are a lot higher than the chances of a simultaneous or near-simultaneous contact between 3 or more.

In essence, your thinking parallels the currently most respected hypothesis in the field.
 

Double Fine

From parts unknown
The generally agreed upon view in the sciences is that sexual reproduction has a survival advantage over asexual reproduction in helping the offspring deal with parasites and diseases. Look it up. Red Queen Hypothesis.
Run as fast as you can, but you stay in the same place.

Yes.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If you or anybody else have more info, I'd love to get more info on those amphibians.

A species of African frog comes to mind. I forget it's name though. Also, I recall some salamanders might be able to reproduce asexually.

By the way, remember that in amphibians and reptiles, the sex of an individual is determined by environmental factors. Not sure about birds. It's been a long time since a biology professor has sat me down to lecture me about the birds (and the bees).
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Run as fast as you can, but you stay in the same place.

Yes.

You got it. Sexual reproduction is a means whereby a species runs as fast as it can to get ahead of its parasites and diseases, but ends up staying in the same place relative to them.
 

Agnostisch

Egyptian Man
There are organisms that produce an offspring by itself. See asexual reproduction.

Having two sexes allows for genetic variation and enhances the process of natural selection. The DNA is double helix, so having two sexes makes sense. I'm not sure which came first, the two sexes or the double helical structure of DNA. However, I think it'd be too complicated to work out the genetic makeup of the offsprings if there are three sexes, let alone sex involving three genders.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Are there species with both sexual and asexual reproduction? I was not aware

Yes, quite a few. Many plants (strawberries have runners, for example), can reproduce asexually while also having seeds for sexual reproduction. Sponges and hydras are animals that can reproduce both ways.
 
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