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Why the Jesus sacrifice?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get it as argued on both sides. However that doesn't mean any of the story happened historically.

Thanks for admitting that. I wonder why you argue against the process of something that never happened? Or maybe you are looking for reason to believe it really did happen. I think there is no outstanding reason to believe it really did happen. and it appears neither do you.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
Thanks for admitting that. I wonder why you argue against the process of something that never happened? Or maybe you are looking for reason to believe it really did happen. I think there is no outstanding reason to believe it really did happen. and it appears neither do you.

Well Pilate is woke up in the middle of the night and becomes a defense lawyer during the trial, then switches to judge, so red flag goes up right there.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well Pilate is woke up in the middle of the night and becomes a defense lawyer during the trial, then switches to judge, so red flag goes up right there.

Do you want to take this outside? Or? Take it up with oldbadger? I dare you. I double dare you.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
In the end of things there is no way that you can make any claim of being ignorant of what the scriptures actually mean in regard to salvation. You just don't believe it. It is the fact that only a very few find the gate so it is also the fact that only a very few, even down to one, could explain it without error.

It's your lucky day. I happen to be that one.

So do you have any questions for me about the scriptures?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
NIV:

Mark 2:1 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Can you now make your point?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You are confusing forgiveness and atonement.

What is the difference on this case?

EDIT: I will elaborate the question.

What is the difference on practice?
If even being forgiven you still have to pay the ( same ) wages for your sin, then what difference does it make if you were forgiven?
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
WalknTune said:
If Adam was created in the likeness of God and man in the likeness of Adam then we can only reason man is in the image of God.
Why does Genesis differentiate between the sons of God and the sons of men? That is in Genesis 6:2 How can we conclude that we are all made in God's image? Really this starts getting into strange territory, too, because now we are talking about the very strange passage about 'Nephilim'.
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Totally lost me, Hawkins. Oh, I see what you're saying. That doesn't seem to be what we are discussing, or is it? I think we are talking more about people putting up with people rather than God putting up with us. It must be easy for God to forgive, since he's so far out of reach that you can't actually hurt him. Forgiveness doesn't cost him anything! What is there to forgive?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Totally lost me, Hawkins. Oh, I see what you're saying. That doesn't seem to be what we are discussing, or is it? I think we are talking more about people putting up with people rather than God putting up with us. It must be easy for God to forgive, since he's so far out of reach that you can't actually hurt him. Forgiveness doesn't cost him anything! What is there to forgive?

You can actually hurt Him in various ways.

You can hurt Him by leading or misleading His sheep away from Him.
You can hurt Him by insulting Him.
You can actually hurt Him by purely sinning.

Jesus was hurt physically on the cross, which is a relatively short experience. His name however is covered with insults till today.

As man He suffered on the cross physically. As God He swallows human insults and bears with human sin till the end comes.

Moreover, I am addressing the OP.
 
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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Hawkins said:
You can actually hurt Him in various ways.
I don't know, Hawkins. I certainly can't change him. I have tried to get him to do things, but he seems to be interested in higher purposes all the time. When something bad happens to me or to someone I'm close to, he doesn't seem to be affected. I know that I could never just stand by and watch someone I love suffer, but God does it all the time. I think we're talking about someone who cannot be hurt.
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

This is something that I just can't understand about the Christian mythos. I can understand the concept of a God that loves people. I can understand the concept of a rift between man and God. And I can understand the desire for God to reconcile.

But, for the life of me, I can't understand why God would need to sacrifice his Son in order to do so.

The way I see it, there were a number of things that may have been the purpose, and a lot of results from this event, so I don't think my response could come close to covering it all -- just some points as I see them. (I don't expect this will jive a with a lot of official theological positions on the matter.)

1. I think that part of "blood sacrifice" of Jesus, had the effect of putting an end to the idea that God required blood sacrifice at all. Jesus was the final blood sacrifice. I think it was an end to that story for his followers.

2. I think part of his mission was to restore his followers to an internal connection with God, within -- which I refer to as the heart-center, or sacred heart. Within the concept of God as being omnipresent, there is no place that God is NOT present. However, there is the experience of being in the presence of God and there is also the experience of being isolated from God. If a person believes, for any reason, that he/she is unworthy to be in the presence of God -- that person most likely will feel isolated from God.

I think the "sacrificial" aspect of Jesus's death may be helpful (depending on how it is used, or approached) in presenting the message that you don't have to "earn" your way back to God. (I think sincerity is crucial, because I also think a person can't trick God.)

One may have an obligation to make things right with people one has harmed, but as far as one's relationship with God is concerned, I think that God does not require fulfilling a list of pay-back duties simply for the right to be God's presence.

I think the right to being in the experience of being in the presence of God is inherent for each person, and that is also why I think Jesus used the term "Father" and "child" in reference to God and to people. The way I see it if one is a child of God, there is no judgment a person can make on earth, or in this thread, :) that is capable of changing the essence of a Father/Child relationship, or to give any one of us the right to place ourselves in between another person and their creator, and declare that other person unworthy of being in God's presence.

"If it is about forgiveness of sins, could not have God simply have said "I forgive you"?
I don't think it's about what God needed. I think it was about what may have been needed for the people, in order to introduce a new understanding/perspective.

"It can't be about the power of death or the rights of Satan, because God is God. He can change the rules, he can make the rules differently from the get-go, and he can simply flex some muscles and say "Scram!".

It seems to me-- and I understand how horrible that this would sound to a believer-- that Jesus' death was rather superfluous. It was unnecessary.

So, what was the point of the Jesus sacrifice?
As I already mentioned, I think there's a lot more than I'm going to say here.

One of the things I see that can be taken away from the crucifixion event is what I have come to understand as "the rulership of the heart" (not emotional center, but whole self-center.) One thing I think Jesus demonstrated by his behavior, even in those last moments of extreme pain and mistreatment is that he did not let even the most horrible of circumstances that would result in the death of his body dictate to him how he would BE. He chose how he would Be. He asked for forgiveness for those that were torturing him to death.

I do not view it that God sent Jesus to earth for the purposed of being tortured and murdered. I view it that Jesus came to earth to fulfill a covenant with God, and in the process of fulfilling that covenant he came into contact with people that crucified him for it. I think it was part of the mission, and I think it's inevitability would be known to God, but I don't think the murdering part was point. I think the message that he brought by his way of being was the point.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
You realize that the quote you just gave also describes Jesus as a sacrifice, don't you?


There is a vast difference between someone who willingly sacrifices their own life to save another and someone who is sacrificed/killed by others for their own benefit.

When firefighters, rescue workers, soldiers, or anyone comes to the aid of a person in danger and give their life to save others it is never called or considered "human sacrifice" in the sense you are suggesting, yet it was still a sacrifice on their part for the sake of another.

Jesus gave His life to save others.. .No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again John 10:18
 
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