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Why Specific Forms of Lying Must be Criminalized and Opened to Lawsuits in any Democracy

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If that were "True" there could be no "Lies" which is a nonsense.

No, there are in practice no overall truth for all of the world. A lie concerns a localized truth, so yes, there can be lies, but only localized for some aspect of the world.

We are doing what some people have a hard time understanding. Truth is a limited human behavior in practice and only relates to some aspects of the world. Just as lies are limited human behavior and only relates to some aspects of the world.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
No, there are in practice no overall truth for all of the world. A lie concerns a localized truth, so yes, there can be lies, but only localized for some aspect of the world.

We are doing what some people have a hard time understanding. Truth is a limited human behavior in practice and only relates to some aspects of the world. Just as lies are limited human behavior and only relates to some aspects of the world.

I do not accept that truth and lies are localised. The content may be localised but truth of that, or lie about it, are universal.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I do not accept that truth and lies are localised. The content may be localised but truth of that, or lie about it, are universal.

Yeah, that you don't accept, is not universal nor objective. So as long you localized and subjectively think that, you can't test how truth works, because you take for granted it is universal and objective.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A couple pages of this thread, & I remain
convinced that more laws against lying
would be a very bad idea.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
But we have people who will say "I strongly believe that x is y" and claim that they're innocent because they stated a belief.


That would be OK. But that is not what we see on a daily basis for people like Cruz, Guiliani, Trump, Carlson.

They flat out spew lies - knowingly. One of the few honest statements made by Trump was to call Cruz "lying Ted". Shortly thereafter Cruz found it was in his best interests to lie for Trump and kiss his royal ***.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Fair enough. But I don't think the times permit taking criminalization off the table as fast as you just did, not even for a technical reason to post. To me, it should at least be given due consideration in regards to how lying drives public opinion, and not as the cause, but especially as the tool.
I took it off the table for the practical reasons that others have detailed.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Opinions don't have a truth value, they are just, well, opinions.
You have a right to your own opinion - but you don't have right to your own facts.

Do you see that take on opinions as something you or anyone could find necessary and sufficient grounds for concluding it was true, or do you see that take more in the way of being a 'best guess' or 'reasonable assumption'?

If the former, could you offer a rough guess at how many years you studied the matter before you thought you understood why and how that take was true?

I never kept track of the time it took me, but I cannot believe it was much less than a decade before I was able to understand the relationship of opinions to truth, and truth to facts well enough not to be surprised about anything new I might learn about the subject.

I honestly know I'm one of the slower thinkers on these things, so maybe it didn't take you nearly as long as it did me. But please don't tell me you're the Einstein of epistemology, unless you are. It would confirm for me my two ex-wife's independently arrived at, but common take on my ego.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Ever try driving at speed at night down an unfamiliar country road while trying to guess the next turn without headlights, but only able to navigate on your memory of a map you didn't even know was purposely falsified in order to lead you to running off the road so a tow truck company could increase the 'value of its stock to its shareholders'?

Well, if you can imagine that in any meaningful way, you have understood one reason why some specific forms of lying must be criminalized and made open to suing for damages anyone who has used lying to injure or harm someone else in terms of abridging, limiting, or preventing their right to self-governance.

At least if representative democracy is your preferred way for people to exercise their right to self-governance via voting for who they judge is the best person to represent their views in any government office. Hard to do that if anyone is messing up your judgement by lying to mislead you about who best represents your interests or what your best interests really are, or anything else along those lines.

Public lying in a democracy is an existentially dangerous threat to the quality of lives, liberties, and freedoms of every citizen in the democracy, save only those who would be immune to much of anything bad that came of doing it.

It seems to me that public lying in a democracy is at least as arguably immoral as handing out intentionally false road maps. It is comparatively speaking, just as blinding.

And in a country where the most reliable sources in any society on the planet today for fact-based information are the reports, articles, journals, and books produced the societies scholars, scientists, and other such intellectuals, public lying in a democracy more or less amounts to turning the lights out. To making the day turn into the night.

If a society does not have the will to push back against public lying, it does not have the will to survive as a democracy.

Such push back in America is unlikely to start at the top. It must start locally. Even as locally as internet websites. Liars must be exposed and made creditable examples of reasons not lie, beginning on the local level in every sense of 'local level'.

Willfully stupid and ignorant responses to being exposed for even innocently passing along false or misleading information, let alone intentionally passing along the same, confirm that one is a liar. One becomes a liar the moment he or she refuses to believe the reality, if it exists, that they have potentially mislead people, let alone actually.

The Lakota put to death any scout who they could credibly believe had lied to them, and they did it in a society that valued personal authenticity, personal freedom and liberty on orders of magnitude more than any of our societies today do. That was not 'primitive' taboos and superstitions at work there. That was timeless and universal insight and wisdom as applied by a people who had no other custom remotely like capital punishment.

Unless that core understanding, minus the death, of how lying threatens everyone's rights, liberties, freedoms, and quality of life becomes commonsense in a society or nation, no democracy is even close to prepared to defend against it.

Especially not in a day and age when three quarters of the opinions folks post on any internet platform can be identified as similar down to the details with opinions and views popular on media outlets. There are not even on RF many false and misleading views that seem substantially original to whoever posts them.

Humans have always aped each other. The net has made aping viral.

I personally think of the consequences of public lying most often in terms of the quality of life my young nephews will be likely to have going forward in a nation that seems to be diseased by it. This is a hill I am willing to die on.




I'm partly persuaded. Its not ideal. I'm not sure how to make a precedent-based court system work with it. Also the system can be used to lie and force a lie onto the public...like in N Korea. So far public discourse has been the only safety net against that, poor as it is.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There are no truth to opinions. There are facts, they have truth. And then are probable outcomes based on facts.

Even as a skeptic, I can do truth and differentiate from opinion.
But it is no in practice not so easy as there are opinions or facts and no grey appears in between.

Even I as a skeptic don't accept that 'all opinions equally matter'.
But I can't tell if you believe there is a way to turn opinion into facts.

See post #34. Respond to it if you must, but please don't skirt a genuine response by merely offering a reaction.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm partly persuaded. Its not ideal. I'm not sure how to make a precedent-based court system work with it. Also the system can be used to lie and force a lie onto the public...like in N Korea. So far public discourse has been the only safety net against that, poor as it is.

You still think you're talking to me? If so, must mean you've given me reason to trust something you said is true enough to not being a waste of my time. I missed where you did that, if that matters to you.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
You still think you're talking to me? If so, must mean you've given me reason to trust something you said is true enough to not being a waste of my time. I missed it.
It is unfortunate that we can no longer converse, but this is your choice. You may change your mind if you wish at a later date.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Lying takes on so many forms that it's difficult to draw a line.

If you wish, restate your view here while taking into account how it's feasible in most cases to get a reasonably good idea of whether a lie could potentially do more harm to someone than that someone wants anyone to risk doing harm to them.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It is unfortunate that we can no longer converse, but this is your choice. You may change your mind if you wish at a later date.

I do not see a tree and think it's my choice to see it or not. Nor am I unlikely to see your words as more meaningful than you thinking you're shifting the blame for your own on-record behavior.

What I do about your behavior will be at a time and place of my choosing. You'll be treated fairly. It will not go beyond that.

I've been charitable enough now in talking to you at all.
 
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