Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[SLPCCC]

Jesus called on the Twelve and gave them the power to make decisions and lead the Church in his absence, and that's quite clearly an organization that continues to exist today.

He established the first Pope?

 

[metis]

He established the first Pope?

The title "Pope" was not used until centuries later, but there's really no doubt that Peter was who Jesus selected, but not as some sort of "dictator." Even today, a pope's power is limited.

 

[walt]

‘Gods’ means ‘Mighty Ones’…. ’Rulers’…the ones endowed with authority over others, makers and keepers and administrators of the law.

And though there are MANY MIGHTY ONES in Heaven (Angels) and in creation (Humanity) FOR US (true believers) there is only ONE who is ALMIGHTY - The God over all whom are called Gods - The Mightiest one over all who are classed as ‘Mighty’.

Majesties (Kings and Princes), Magistrates, Judges, Priests and High Priests, Teachers of the Law, Keepers of the Law: ‘Police Officers’, etc.

I agree in your way of thinking!

If Apostle Paul is called a god at Acts 28: 3-6 just because of people witnessing him being bitten by a venomous creature and surviving just fine, surely Angels can be called gods when they are doing The Almighty's God's work.

Acts 28:3-6
3 But when Paul collected a bundle of sticks and laid it on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the foreign-speaking people caught sight of the venomous creature hanging from his hand, they began saying to one another: “Surely this man is a murderer, and although he made it to safety from the sea, Justice did not permit him to keep on living.” 5 However, he shook the creature off into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 But they were expecting him to swell up or suddenly to drop dead. After they waited for a long time and saw that nothing bad happened to him, they changed their mind and began saying he was a god.

When God Almighty sends his Angel to part the red sea. or stop the mouths of the lions to save Daniel's life or when God sends his Angels to save the three Israelites lives from the fiery furnace. [ Angels act in powerful ways ] Could this be an example of one of the gods from heaven. And Paul writing many parts of the bible and suffering for the sake of the good news, be an example of so-called gods on earth?

Are these good examples of acting as gods whether in heaven or on earth? I think so, what do you think?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Even though there are so-called gods in heaven or on earth, the Apostle Paul gives the credit and wants us to believe this way, 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Jesus gives the credit to his Father and wants us to believe this way.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus calls his Father the only true God and Paul says, there is actually to us one God, the Father. They both want us to look to the Father
"as the only true God" or "one God", Jesus gives most all the credit to his Father and Paul says Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

I try my best to think like they think, I put faith in Jesus and the Apostle Paul's words closely. Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[walt]

I find your comments interesting. I remember a JW telling me, "If you want to know that praying to saints is wrong, would you go to a Catholic book?" He answered for me and said, "No!" Then he offered me a magazine on how Catholicism was wrong. Here, it seems, you are saying the opposite, "Go to the horse's mouth." I think both sides should be heard, including neutral sources (three is better than one). It's good to compare and contrast from all three remaining neutral. I wouldn't just go to the horse's mouth (not that that's what you are saying). They or it can be lying.

I see your point, but if you gave a magazine to your friend let's say, just like we're doing on this forum, say a few words but always direct people to the source of truth.. Only Scripture! If a magazine or book is directing people to scripture as the source of truth, does a problem really exist? Granted that's what is being done in the magazine. I think it depends on "Is the words in the magazine directing people to their own Bibles?"

 

[Trailblazer]

just like we're doing on this forum, say a few words but always direct people to the source of truth.. Only Scripture!

Do you believe that the Bible is the only source of truth? If so, why do you believe that?

 

[walt]

Do you believe that the Bible is the only source of truth? If so, why do you believe that?

Please give me just a little time to find the scriptures that would agree with that line of thinking. Thank you -- your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[Soapy]

I should have put an apostrophy after Jesus. "He became Jesus' God when Jesus became a man, as Psalm 22:10 tells us."
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon You; from my mother’s womb You have been my God.

So we can see that Jesus Father became His God when Jesus became a man.

Brian2, where is there an end to the incredulous nonesense you present as your ‘truth’??

If Jesus’ God was his God ‘from my mother’s womb!’… and was ‘Cast upon God’ (made in His image), how can Jesus have suddenly gained a God if he was God in your belief?

Before Jesus was in his mother’s womb he did not exist except by prophesy:

• ‘Abraham foresaw my day - and was glad!’
• God anointed Jesus of Nazareth and sent him into the world. To be ‘Sent into the world’ means ‘To face adversity, sin, and death’

 

[Soapy]

So, you don't believe all scriptures, only the ones that agree with your views. It seems like you are cherry-picking. If I show you another scripture you won't accept it because it won't agree with your view.

Absolutely I only believe the scriptures that ARE NOT CORRUPTED. But yet I can decipher the corrupted ones back to their original saying if they actually existed, or that they were ADDED into scriptures ALWAYS in vain attempt to justify a fallacious trinity ideology.

Why would you Expect me to believe in false doctrine??? Is that what you do?

 

[YoursTrue]

I would like to submit a suggestion that the writers of the gospels in the New Testament were fuelled by the belief that the name of the Father must not be spoken (or written, as anyone reading it would be forced to pronounce it).

No one should disagree that IT WAS THE ACTUAL APOSTLES who wrote the gospels associated with their name bug rather, writers many many years later. Therefore Jesus could well have defied the Jews and pronounced the name of his HEAVENLY Father BUT the writers CHOSE NOT TO WRITE IT and REPLACED the name with ‘God’ or ‘Father’ instead.

It really needs to be asked WHY Jesus would have any compunction in calling the Father by His name - he did not fear the Jews nor would ever have brought the name of God into disrepute as others might have done.

Notice that in the Old Testament the name of God is used EXTENSIVELY (please understand that ‘LORD’ (all caps) is ‘YHWH’ and should be read as such bug even moderate to latter day religious believers (JW being examples of exceptions) REFUSE to say the name even when simply READING the scriptures which carry no disreputable element!

TRINITARIAN Christian’s even go to the extent of claiming that GOD (The Father) DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A NAME AS ‘YHWH’, which absolutely DENIES the claim OF YHWH that:

• ‘This is my name for all eternity’

The reason trinitarians deny the name of God is that it identifies the Father as God alone and therefore the Son and ‘holy Spirit’ cannot be God, also. Denying the name means they can call the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit, ‘God’ without having to identify any of them BY NAME.
And it is clear that the Son is called ‘Yeshua’ (Joshua / Jesus) and the Spirit is NEVER given a name …

The Spirit of God (called, ‘The Holy Spirit’ and worse, ‘the holy GHOST’!!!?? What is a GHOST?) has no name because it is the Spirit of YHWH, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father… The Spirit of a man does not have a name, just as the Spirit of God does not have a name… both are ‘OF’ their respective NAMED OWNER - God or man.

I believe that the name was forbidden to be pronounced by the Jews for a while before Jesus came to the earth. @metis and @IndigoChild may have some information about this.

 

[Soapy]

I agree in your way of thinking!

If Apostle Paul is called a god at Acts 28: 3-6 just because of people witnessing him being bitten by a venomous creature and surviving just fine, surely Angels can be called gods when they are doing The Almighty's God's work.

Acts 28:3-6
3 But when Paul collected a bundle of sticks and laid it on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the foreign-speaking people caught sight of the venomous creature hanging from his hand, they began saying to one another: “Surely this man is a murderer, and although he made it to safety from the sea, Justice did not permit him to keep on living.” 5 However, he shook the creature off into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 But they were expecting him to swell up or suddenly to drop dead. After they waited for a long time and saw that nothing bad happened to him, they changed their mind and began saying he was a god.

When God Almighty sends his Angel to part the red sea. or stop the mouths of the lions to save Daniel's life or when God sends his Angels to save the three Israelites lives from the fiery furnace. [ Angels act in powerful ways ] Could this be an example of one of the gods from heaven. And Paul writing many parts of the bible and suffering for the sake of the good news, be an example of so-called gods on earth?

Are these good examples of acting as gods whether in heaven or on earth? I think so, what do you think?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Even though there are so-called gods in heaven or on earth, the Apostle Paul gives the credit and wants us to believe this way, 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Jesus gives the credit to his Father and wants us to believe this way.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus calls his Father the only true God and Paul says, there is actually to us one God, the Father. They both want us to look to the Father
"as the only true God" or "one God", Jesus gives most all the credit to his Father and Paul says Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

I try my best to think like they think, I put faith in Jesus and the Apostle Paul's words closely. Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

Yes, that is how to read the truth.

One point to clear up:

• ‘Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.’

Be careful here. Trinitarians will claim that this is proof that Jesus created all things (‘Through whom are all things…’) but that is not the meaning.

Paul is saying that NOW JESUS IS IN HEAVEN, the Father has granted him ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to rule for a time. This is what Paul means by ‘through whom are all things’ and consequently, ‘we through him [also]‘

Remember that Trinitarians wrote/translated the New Testaments and were instructed to make Trinity appear to be true. They were under the orders of churches that were only authorised to teach trinity as the doctrine - of course they would try to modify scriptures where they think could get away with it since only an elite set of people were allowed to read things for themselves - Believe me, when you cannot see the actual words, when someone reads with suitable inflexions and stresses of speech, when you cannot query what is being read, they can turn a lie into a truth and you cannot check for yourself - I’ve seen it done, for real, and I was appalled at the reader!!!

 

[Soapy]

I agree in your way of thinking!

If Apostle Paul is called a god at Acts 28: 3-6 just because of people witnessing him being bitten by a venomous creature and surviving just fine, surely Angels can be called gods when they are doing The Almighty's God's work.

Acts 28:3-6
3 But when Paul collected a bundle of sticks and laid it on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the foreign-speaking people caught sight of the venomous creature hanging from his hand, they began saying to one another: “Surely this man is a murderer, and although he made it to safety from the sea, Justice did not permit him to keep on living.” 5 However, he shook the creature off into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 But they were expecting him to swell up or suddenly to drop dead. After they waited for a long time and saw that nothing bad happened to him, they changed their mind and began saying he was a god.

When God Almighty sends his Angel to part the red sea. or stop the mouths of the lions to save Daniel's life or when God sends his Angels to save the three Israelites lives from the fiery furnace. [ Angels act in powerful ways ] Could this be an example of one of the gods from heaven. And Paul writing many parts of the bible and suffering for the sake of the good news, be an example of so-called gods on earth?

Are these good examples of acting as gods whether in heaven or on earth? I think so, what do you think?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Even though there are so-called gods in heaven or on earth, the Apostle Paul gives the credit and wants us to believe this way, 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Jesus gives the credit to his Father and wants us to believe this way.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus calls his Father the only true God and Paul says, there is actually to us one God, the Father. They both want us to look to the Father
"as the only true God" or "one God", Jesus gives most all the credit to his Father and Paul says Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

I try my best to think like they think, I put faith in Jesus and the Apostle Paul's words closely. Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

Yes, that is how to read the truth.

One point to clear up:

• ‘Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.’

Be careful here. Trinitarians will claim that this is proof that Jesus created all things (‘Through whom are all things…’) but that is not the meaning.

Paul is saying that NOW JESUS IS IN HEAVEN, the Father has granted him ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY to rule for a time. This is what Paul means by ‘through whom are all things’ and consequently, ‘we through him [also]‘

Remember that Trinitarians wrote/translated the New Testaments and were instructed to make Trinity appear to be true. They were under the orders of churches that were only authorised to teach trinity as the doctrine - of course they would try to modify scriptures where they think could get away with it since only an elite set of people were allowed to read things for themselves - Believe me, when you cannot see the actual words, when someone reads with suitable inflexions and stresses of speech, when you cannot query what is being read, they can turn a lie into a truth and you cannot check for yourself - I’ve seen it done, for real, and I was appalled at the reader!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Brian2, where is there an end to the incredulous nonesense you present as your ‘truth’??

If Jesus’ God was his God ‘from my mother’s womb!’… and was ‘Cast upon God’ (made in His image), how can Jesus have suddenly gained a God if he was God in your belief?

I suggest you not try to make sense of the Trinitarian beliefs, because you never will.

The Baha'i Faith has a Trinity belief but it is not like the Christian Trinity belief.
We believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are connected because they are ‘one in Purpose.’
In other words, they work together, but they are separate, not all ‘part of God.’
God is forever one and cannot be divided into Three Persons.

Before Jesus was in his mother’s womb he did not exist except by prophesy:

• ‘Abraham foresaw my day - and was glad!’
• God anointed Jesus of Nazareth and sent him into the world. To be ‘Sent into the world’ means ‘To face adversity, sin, and death’

I believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body was born of Mary in this world.
That is why somewhere in the Bible Jesus said that He existed before Abraham. What Jesus meant is that His soul existed in the spiritual world (heaven) before His body was born in this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Cordelro]

I've noticed on RF there are a lot of heretical (that's the technical term) Christians who disbelieve in the Trinity.

Why?

We've had the creeds since Late Antiquity (Apostolic, Nicaean, Athanasian) and they all include the Trinity, especially the latter, which is all about it. These creeds are regularly read in churches and have been for hundreds of years. If the Trinity were so easily disproven, why would it have held out and been accepted by the orthodox Christians? Why spend so much time fighting the Arians? And why, I'm sorry to ask, is it almost always Protestants? Do you think you know something that everybody in the early orthodox Church failed to grasp?

Why is there so much of this around lately? How do you explain how Jesus is God without the Trinity?

How do you explain the worship of Christ?

And why is it treated in such a light manner?

Because many have a false idea of the Trinity. The nicaean(later version) and the athanasian creed describe a false Trinity.

Most people have the catholic Trinity in mind which is in fact polytheistic. The catholic Trinity teaches three independent persons who are each fully God, which means they are three different gods. But the biblical Trinity teaches three different persons who are dependent on each other, which means they are only together fully God. This is called the partialistic Trinity.

 

[Soapy]

I believe that the name was forbidden to be pronounced by the Jews for a while before Jesus came to the earth. @metis and @IndigoChild may have some information about this.

Yes, I know, thanks. I didn’t say it wasn’t. I’ve written swathes of stuff about this in other posts.

If I wasn’t clear then thanks for letting me know - but if you could say which part caused the problem so I can correct it next time.

 

[SLPCCC]

I see your point, but if you gave a magazine to your friend let's say, just like we're doing on this forum, say a few words but always direct people to the source of truth.. Only Scripture! If a magazine or book is directing people to scripture as the source of truth, does a problem really exist? Granted that's what is being done in the magazine. I think it depends on "Is the words in the magazine directing people to their own Bibles?"

Let's say a JW friend gives you a magazine that quotes John 14:14 in their bible and it reads:

• "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. NWT

Here, you will read it the way they want you to think. That if you ask anything in Jesus' name he will give it to you. Yes?

But if you go outside their bible and read it from the Greek translation word for word, you'll see that it actually says:
From: Bible Hub

• If anything you ask Me in the the name of me I will do it.

This has a totally different understanding. Here, it's saying that if you ask Jesus [Me], he [Jesus] will do it.

So the magazine is pointing to a misleading quote of a scripture, and you won't know unless you look at outside references.

---

Here's another example:

I found a Watchtower article that states Jehovah's Witnesses alone refrain from war. This is simply not true. But you won't know unless you research outside.

• "Who are no part of the world and learn war no more? Again, the historical record of the 20th century testifies: only Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 1992 Apr 1 p.12

Doing research outside I found Christian churches known for their stance against war:

• Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500's)
• Brethren (Dunkards) groups, including
  • Church of the Brethren
• Anabaptist groups, including
  • Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
  • Hutterites
  • Schwenkfelders
  • Bruderhof Communities
  • Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
• Society of Friends (Quakers)
• Doukhobors - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Molokans - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Some Pentecostal groups such as the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
• Seven Day Adventists
• Community of Christ
• Christadelphians
• Worldwide Church of God
• Pax Christi - A Catholic peace movement
• Fellowship of Reconciliation - A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination. All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
  • Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
  • Methodist Peace Fellowship
  • Baptist Peace Fellowship
  • Orthodox Peace Fellowship
  • Lutheran Peace Fellowship
  • Presbyterian Peace Fellowship

This is what I was talking to you about seeing the bad fruit.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the biblical Trinity teaches three different persons who are dependent on each other, which means they are only together fully God. This is called the partialistic Trinity.

That is similar to what I believe: #932

I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are dependent on each other, although I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God (the Father) whose luminous rays emanated from Jesus, after God (the Father) sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

I suggest you not try to make sense of the Trinitarian beliefs, because you never will.

The Baha'i Faith has a Trinity belief but it is not like the Christian Trinity belief.
We believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are connected because they are ‘one in Purpose.’
In other words, they work together, but they are separate, not all ‘part of God.’
God is forever one and cannot be divided into Three Persons.

I believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body was born of Mary in this world.
That is why somewhere in the Bible Jesus said that He existed before Abraham. What Jesus meant is that His soul existed in the spiritual world (heaven) before His body was born in this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

I do not ‘try to make sense of trinity’. Thanks, but I’ve been doing this for over 45 years.

I’m toying with @Brian2, and @Ken, who are so ridiculous with their belief the only thing to do is to pay them with a sense of humour. They make huge glaring errors of ideological belief that I can only understand their stance by referring to this verse:

• ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie’

However, @Brian2, and @Ken allow me to strengthen my belief in the truth by countering what they say that is false. Look at it like this: His does a body builder build up strength. Isn’t it by putting himself against a resisting force?? Yes, @Brian2 and @Ken are those resistant Spiritual forces and belief in the truth of God and his Christ, Jesus, is the strength I develop. There are many areas I would not have learnt about except for investigating and countering deceitful beliefs.

Trinitarians serve a purpose: In the film ‘Lord of the Rings, the creature, ‘Gollum’, is to be despised but yet the wizard, Gandalf, says, ‘Do not kill him - He may well still serve a useful purpose!’ And so it is with Trinitarians (not just the two I stated) … but I do get aggressive (is that what you see) and have to keep remembering:

• “In disputing with the devil over the body of Moses, the Archangel Michael did not bring a charge against him but said only: ‘May God rebuke you’”

 

[Trailblazer]

Doing research outside I found Christian churches known for their stance against war:

You can add the Baha'i Faith to your list:

"The Baha'i Teachings, indeed, condemn, emphatically and unequivocally, any form of physical violence, and warfare in the battlefield is obviously a form, and perhaps the worst form which such violence can assume."

Baha'i - Center on Conscience & War​

 

[walt]

Do you believe that the Bible is the only source of truth? If so, why do you believe that?

Many people focus on the way they feel is a more correct way of doing things, you will have to decide for yourself.

My way, I try to form my thinking by first "only quoting Jesus words" I focus all my effort on that one task. and I try my very best not to add even one word more to Jesus words! I let Jesus words do all the explaining in such a way, his words become my foundation of truth to affect my thinking.

I am working on a [ great example ] and you will see fully how I do each step, I try from the beginning to find 100% agreement in scripture. it is very hard at first but after it's like riding a bike, it's very easy the next time. Your friend Christ in Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not ‘try to make sense of trinity’. Thanks, but I’ve been doing this for over 45 years.

I cannot see how you survived doing this that long. It is an important mission even if you never convince any of those Christians to drop the Trinity belief.

However, @Brian2, and @Ken allow me to strengthen my belief in the truth by countering what they say that is false. Look at it like this: His does a body builder build up strength. Isn’t it by putting himself against a resisting force?? Yes, @Brian2 and @Ken are those resistant Spiritual forces and belief in the truth of God and his Christ, Jesus, is the strength I develop. There are many areas I would not have learnt about except for investigating and countering deceitful beliefs.

Yes, listening to others is a learning experience and builds up strength for the reasons you gave.