Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Ebionite]

They were lying to get Jesus in more trouble. How do we know? Because that's not what Jesus said. Reread it.

John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, .... he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead..."

He says nothing about destroy the temple of God. He only says, "Destroy this temple...


John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again....Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

The writer of John had to insert commentary to make the account consistent with his doctrine of the word made flesh. His doctrine relies on the outlier account of the spear at the crucifixion.

This isn't the only case of John repeating an account that favours the Pharisees. Another is the account of the cleansing in the temple.

John is the only gospel to have insider knowledge of Caiapas' argument for the murder of Yeshua.

https://wethepeople.nz/torah/pages/john.html

 

[Truthseeker]

The prescription has already been given:

• ‘This command I give to you: Love one another!’

Because the majority ‘hate’ their brothers the prescription cannot work.

There's more to it than that in my opinion. If you want to know what I think they are post back to me. I don't want to bombard them you with them unsolicited. Why do you think people hate their brothers? What has happened after the first few centuries that this has developed over time? Just questions for you to ponder on. If you ask I may give my opinion on that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

This is just repackaged Protestantism.

My own views are closer to Christian Unitarianism. Which has nothing to do with Protestantism. And is the antithesis of Trinitarianism as understood by orthodox, Roman Catholics and Anglicans or any of the protestant churches.
The Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland, is perhaps the closest to my beliefs, which differs by a wide margin from UU /Unitarian community, though associated with them.

 

[SLPCCC]

The writer of John had to insert commentary to make the account consistent with his doctrine of the word made flesh. His doctrine relies on the outlier account of the spear at the crucifixion.

This isn't the only case of John repeating an account that favours the Pharisees. Another is the account of the cleansing in the temple.

John is the only gospel to have insider knowledge of Caiapas' argument for the murder of Yeshua.

OK, since no one here is able to answer the simple question of, "Why is it that Jesus says that he will raise himself up when he dies instead of saying that his father will raise him up?" I will answer it using scriptures.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Answer:

No one can kill God. They killed the Son by destroying the temple of His body, but since He, Jesus, is God, He is able to say, I will raise it up!

That's why when Thomas realized that Jesus fulfilled His prophecy in John 2:19-22, Thomas said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God!"

That's why Jesus is called God by Peter and Paul

• Titus 2:13: “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That's why Jesus is called God in John 1:1

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

---

Jesus didn't need to say the Father will raise Him because The Father and the Son are One, the same God!

1. God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2. God and Jesus are both called Lord of Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3. God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4. They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7. Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

8) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

9) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

10) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

11) Jesus says if you see him, you see the Father, meaning you see God but as the Son.

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

I can go on and on . . .

 

[YoursTrue]

When I asked the question back in #551:


No one answered using scriptures; instead, it was said:

• "He did not say his body was a temple, but he spoke of the temple of his body."
• "Actually to understand that he was speaking of the temple of his body and not his body itself, is very important."

What?? Isn't this wordplay avoiding the question and twisting scripture? It doesn't matter which one he meant. The point/question is why he says
"I will raise it up" instead of saying that his father will raise him up?

LOL. Are you making this up, or are you getting this from the Darkweb? Come on! It's about the resurrection.

John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again....Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

So do you think Jesus had a temple and the temple was his body?

 

[YoursTrue]

OK, since no one here is able to answer the simple question of, "Why is it that Jesus says that he will raise himself up when he dies instead of saying that his father will raise him up?" I will answer it using scriptures.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Answer:

No one can kill God. They killed the Son by destroying the temple of His body, but since He, Jesus, is God, He is able to say, I will raise it up!

That's why when Thomas realized that Jesus fulfilled His prophecy in John 2:19-22, Thomas said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God!"

That's why Jesus is called God by Peter and Paul

• Titus 2:13: “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That's why Jesus is called God in John 1:1

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

---

Jesus didn't need to say the Father will raise Him because The Father and the Son are One, the same God!

1. God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2. God and Jesus are both called Lord of Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3. God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4. They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7. Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

8) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

9) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

10) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

11) Jesus says if you see him, you see the Father, meaning you see God but as the Son.

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

I can go on and on . . .

So just taking it on his word, Jesus had a temple. And it was the temple of his body.

 

[YoursTrue]

It never occurred to me to look for or check natural science in the Bible. It just isn't that kind of book. I'm glad that our church didn't pollute minds with pseudoscience.

My research was different. It was about how much is Bible historically reliable (true). It turned out to be less than I expected.

And my research and belief is different. Sounds like your church was anti-Bible. Meantime, scientists still can't even define what a species is. Oh well, have a nice day in the substance, I guess.

 

[Ebionite]

OK, since no one here is able to answer the simple question of, "Why is it that Jesus says that he will raise himself up when he dies instead of saying that his father will raise him up?" I will answer it using scriptures.

Your question rests on the assumption that the account from the gospel of John did not originate with the false witnesses. The differences between John's account and the synoptics all favour the Pharisees in the gospel of John.

 

[blü 2]

So just taking it on his word, Jesus had a temple. And it was the temple of his body.

Hey wow! This was post 666 . . . . . .

 

[Soapy]

No, Baha'u'llah was not the new Jesus. There is only one Jesus. Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Jesus, He came with a new name.

The Bible says Christ (not Jesus) would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. It would not be Jesus Christ.

Baha'u'llah did not mislead the world. He was the Spirit of truth who led us unto all truth, just as the Bible says would happen.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

How easily you are deceived… But what do you get from this deception?

You cannot decide if your man is another prophet or he is the promised Spirit of God - which was sent AT PENTECOST…

You wrote in another post that the bodies of those given life in the new world will be some kind of ‘Heavenly’ body… And thats what your man says… Well, that’s not true and nothing in any scriptures says so.

‘Heavenly’ is not the same as ‘heavenly’. The first pertains to the realm of Spirits, the ‘abode’ of God and angels. The latter is just another word for ‘Glorious’, ‘Wonderful’, ‘Magnificent’…

• ‘It was a really hot day and that ice cream was just heavenly!!’

In the new world all those who attain to it will have ‘Glorious’ bodies, spiritual bodies… BODIES… A person in the Heavenly does not have a BODY!!!

Jesus proved this in the famous quote (everything Jesus says is to taken as famous though he says the words are from his Father, God, YHWH, not his own!):

• ‘Touch me, see that I am not a Spirit. For a Spirit does not have flesh and bone as I have’

And yes, Jesus was a human being WITH A GLORIFIED BODY… a body of flesh and bone as all humans have.

However, to enter into the abode of God means ditching the body and appearing in the Spirit alone. This is a materialise / dematerialise issue which is only available to those who have heavenly (glorified) bodies. Hence Jesus could dematerialise, travel in the spirit anywhere in moments, and materialise anywhere he wills.

Even so, only those of the ELECT of God will be able to enter the Spirit realm… The mass of those in the new world will reside in the created world and make it a heavenly (magnificent) ‘garden’… which is what God proposed from the beginning - and what God says, must be… no matter his long it takes:

• ‘The word that comes out of my mouth will by no means return to me until it has fulfilled that which it was sent out to achieve’

 

[PearlSeeker]

And my research and belief is different. Sounds like your church was anti-Bible.

Different interpretation is not anti-Bible. It's just different and makes more sense.

 

[Soapy]

Hey wow! This was post 666 . . . . . .

Note that Jesus DID NOT SAY that he was going to raise up HIS BODY… resurrect himself…
That is a strained argument madd by Trinitarians who desired to find ways to claim that Jesus us God since Scriptures tells us that if was:

• ‘GOD WHO RAISED UP JESUS’

Jesus only says he would raise up THE TEMPLE…

A Temple is place of worship… We are not worshipping Jesus’ body…!!

Jesus meant ‘The temple of people’, the new ‘Church’ which was fledgling at that time: The true temple of God founded on the true belief HE BROUGHT from God (Rev 1:1).

Jesus was taught the true testimony by God and it was the major first part of his job to give it to the (Jewish) people who would spread it worldwide - but they, in the main, rejected him and the testimony.

When Jesus died, the ‘church’ (congregation) SCATTERED… But when Jesus was resurrected BY GOD, his appearance REBUILT the TEMPLE OF GOD IN THE PEOPLE’S BELIEF IN HIM.

So, all this trinitarian talk about ‘raising up his own body’ has nothing to do with what Jesus was speaking about… in fact, the words, ‘he spoke of the temple of his body’ were most likely ADDED by the translators who were Trinitarians!!!

 

[YoursTrue]

Different interpretation is not anti-Bible. It's just different and makes more sense.

If a church or group of people declare other than what the Bible says by interpreting, saying things like Moses never existed and more, then that preacher or religion is anti-bible even if they have the Bible as the main reference book, so to speak.

 

[Soapy]

There's more to it than that in my opinion. If you want to know what I think they are post back to me. I don't want to bombard them you with them unsolicited. Why do you think people hate their brothers? What has happened after the first few centuries that this has developed over time? Just questions for you to ponder on. If you ask I may give my opinion on that.

Thanks but there will always be more to things.

It’s best to pursue it as a new thread question.

 

[Soapy]

If a church or group of people declare other than what the Bible says by interpreting, saying things like Moses never existed and more, then that preacher or religion is anti-bible even if they have the Bible as the main reference book, so to speak.

It would clearly be not ‘Judas/Christian’… and anyone who is Jew or Christian would be best advised to avoid such a church or group. It would be foolish to engage in dispute with them unless they were equipped with the Spirit of God to deal with them: Recall the people who thought they could exorcise demons and were ravaged by the demons!!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

How easily you are deceived… But what do you get from this deception?

You cannot decide if your man is another prophet or he is the promised Spirit of God - which was sent AT PENTECOST…

I certainly can decide.

The Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in.

The Spirit truth was the Holy Spirit that was sent in the last days. Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth because he brought the Holy Spirit in the last days.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

You wrote in another post that the bodies of those given life in the new world will be some kind of ‘Heavenly’ body… And thats what your man says… Well, that’s not true and nothing in any scriptures says so.

Since you mentioned the new world, I just finished responding to a post on another thread that pertains to that. Below is what I said.

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

I don't know what it means to say that the first heaven will pass away, but the first earth passing away means that the earth will be transformed so the old earth will exist no longer. This is not referring to the physical earth, it is referring to the conditions on earth, social, economic, political, and spiritual. Eventually there will be a new race of men on earth.

New Race of Men

No more sea does not mean there will be no more oceans. The seas are is symbolic for the divisions between people on earth, what divides us as humans.
No more sea means there will be no more division because humanity will be united. Since all humans have been created equal in the image of God, God does not make any distinction between people based upon race, creed, color, or religion, so neither should we. Eventually there will be one common faith.

Revelation 21:4
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

That verse literally it was not intended to be interpreted literally.
No more mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away means that on the new earth (after the earth has been transformed as noted above) people will be happy because the former things (painful and sorrowful things that used to exist on the old earth) will no longer exist.

Even so, only those of the ELECT of God will be able to enter the Spirit realm… The mass of those in the new world will reside in the created world and make it a heavenly (magnificent) ‘garden’… which is what God proposed from the beginning - and what God says, must be… no matter his long it takes:

• ‘The word that comes out of my mouth will by no means return to me until it has fulfilled that which it was sent out to achieve’

You are welcome to believe that but I don't. I believe that everyone goes to the spirit realm when they die physically. Meanwhile, all living people will reside on earth until they die and some of those people will help in building the New Earth that I described above.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The question is, why does he say, in three days I will raise it up " instead of saying that his father will raise him up. Isn't both the body and temple of his body dead? How can he raise it up?

Good question!

The simple answer is this: because it depended / hinged on him staying loyal to Yahweh, his God.

The same with the ‘woman with the flow of blood’…. Didn’t Jesus (through God’s power) heal her? Yes, but what did Jesus say right afterwards? He told her, “Your faith has made you well.”

So in reality, if she hadn’t had faith, she wouldn’t have gotten well. It had basically been up to her.

Same with Jesus.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

I don't know what it means to say that the first heaven will pass away, but the first earth passing away means that the earth will be transformed so the old earth will exist no longer.

Does earth need to mean the planet?
No…

Please read Genesis 11:1….
Earth here definitely refers to people, ie., society.


Besides, understanding it literally, would contradict Ecclesiastes 1:4.

As far as “…the sea is no more”, does that mean the literal oceans? No, please read the figurative use of “sea” in Isaiah 57:20.

So IOW, the wicked will be “no more”, in harmony with Psalm 37:10,11 & others.

Hope you are well, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Revelation 21:1
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

I don't know what it means to say that the first heaven will pass away, but the first earth passing away means that the earth will be transformed so the old earth will exist no longer.

You saying, “I don’t know what it means to say the first Heaven will pass away….”

You know, you’re a gem! Your candid honesty is very appealing! Not very many would own up to ‘not knowing’ something; they would just not say anything.

From what I’ve been taught, heaven, in this context, refers to governments & rulerships. If you read Ephesians 3:10, you can see how heaven can be applied.

To summarize….(keep in mind my previous post about “earth”)…
‘The former heaven and the former earth passing away,’ is symbolically speaking of human rulerships & the worldly societies they rule over as being gone, and “the New Heaven and the New Earth” is referencing God’s Kingdom (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9,10) exerting it’s authority over a ‘new society’ of meek people who love God & His Son.

No more inept & divisive human rulerships, struggling with one disaster after another!

 

[Soapy]

OK, since no one here is able to answer the simple question of, "Why is it that Jesus says that he will raise himself up when he dies instead of saying that his father will raise him up?" I will answer it using scriptures.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Answer:

No one can kill God. They killed the Son by destroying the temple of His body, but since He, Jesus, is God, He is able to say, I will raise it up!

That's why when Thomas realized that Jesus fulfilled His prophecy in John 2:19-22, Thomas said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God!"

That's why Jesus is called God by Peter and Paul

• Titus 2:13: “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That's why Jesus is called God in John 1:1

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

---

Jesus didn't need to say the Father will raise Him because The Father and the Son are One, the same God!

1. God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2. God and Jesus are both called Lord of Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3. God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4. They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7. Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

8) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

9) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

10) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

11) Jesus says if you see him, you see the Father, meaning you see God but as the Son.

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

I can go on and on . . .

So both God and Jesus created all things individually by themselves alone?!

You do know that the term, ‘God’ is a Superlative Adjective which means like ‘Mighty one’…
‘Your throne, O mighty one, is forever …’.

A magistrate may say to a judge in a courtroom:
‘O mighty one, may you have mercy on my client…’. Is the magistrate calling the judge ‘YHWH GOD’? Oh, or is he calling the judge, ‘Jesus’?

Why is it not blasphemy to abuse the name of the second important person of the trinity, the Son, but it is blasphemy to abuse the supposed third and first persons of the trinity?

‘First and Last’, ‘Beginning and End’, ‘Alpha and Omega’ all just mean ‘The Only One’!!
“The first and last child of a family is THE ONLY ONE of a child in that family’. ‘The beginning and end of a line of clothing in a certain business is THE ONLY ONE set of clothing made by that company’. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega of those created holy and remains holy eternally: The Only One.