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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
They can only know based upon oral tradition since that is all we have in order to know what Jesus said.
But I don't think you are using the word 'tradition' in the same sense I am using it.
That's what tradition means within Christianity (at least the major groups, not most Protestant forms). So when RCCs, Anglicans, and Orthodox use it, this is what we mean. It's a tradition that's come from the Apostles.

Tradition seems to be a dirty word to some people and I don't know why (I mean, I really don't). It's basically how the whole of Christianity, and almost any pre-mass-literacy religion, develops. I don't know how else you'd pass down rituals, understandings, stories etc. other than by this method. These things then become traditions. So Jesus himself institutes the Last Supper, so now that's a Church tradition. Some begin later than others and this seems to be where people start having problems, but this is not a problem if you believe the Holy Ghost guides the Church.
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Do you eat blood?

Acts doesn't let you; Paul does.

Scripture is not the be all and end all, nor is it always clear.
I agree, Some things we will never know until the next life! But Jesus and the Apostles give us specific instructions, so at least we know some of the things for sure.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't know how else you'd pass down rituals, understandings, stories etc. other than by this method. These things then become traditions.
In my previous post, I just explained another way we can know, from the actual Writings of the Prophets.
The Baha'i Faith does not rely upon traditions. Our beliefs, rituals, and understandings are all based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah and His successors.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
In my previous post, I just explained another way we can know, from the actual Writings of the Prophets.
The Baha'i Faith does not rely upon traditions. Our beliefs, rituals, and understandings are all based upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah and His successors.
You're expecting that everyone can read or cares for books.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You're expecting that everyone can read or cares for books.
Many of the Baha'i Writings are also available in audio.
People can also learn from reading what is on the internet, or from talking to other Baha'is, and there are also classes taught by Baha'is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There are still many folks around the world who cannot read. It's a Western norm to read, not a worldwide one.
So how can they read the Bible? Do you think they should just take the word of a preacher instead of reading it for themself?

This is the modern age. Don't you think everyone should learn to read?
Universal compulsory education is one of the primary teachings of Baha'u'llah.

The theme of education in the Bahá'í Faith is given quite prominent emphasis. Its literature gives a principle of universal, or compulsory education.[39] The Bahá'í teachings focus on promoting a moral and spiritual education, in addition to the arts, trades, sciences and professions. Bahá'u'lláh wrote that the spiritual capacities of each individual could not be achieved without spiritual education, and thus children needed to have spiritual/religious education from an early stage. He also stressed the importance of secular education in that one's work and vocation is socially important. The Bahá'í teachings state it is the obligation of the parents to provide for the education of their children, and that special importance should be given to the education of girls.[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai_teachings
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
My Mother's Father and Grandmother told her it's a sin to eat meat on Friday, this has been passed down for thousands of years, it is a tradition, but does Jesus or an Apostle direct the congregation to do this?
Fasting is spoken of many occasions in the Bible. That's what the Catholic tradition of refraining from meat on Friday is -- a mild form of fasting. Now, if a church community is going to fast as a group, then they have set rules so that everyone in the group knows what to do.
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
The original "oral tradition" by Jesus and Apostles is very good. I agree with most everyone! :)

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Matthew 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Matthew 15:3-20 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The original "oral tradition" by Jesus and Apostles is very good. I agree most everyone! :)

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
Originally, there were twelve, and Matthais replaced Judas, not Paul. Paul's role was to bear the name, not be be a minister and witness.

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:15-16

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:15-16
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Do you eat blood?
Acts doesn't let you; Paul does.
Scripture is not the be all and end all, nor is it always clear.
Besides Acts 15:20 so does so does Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 7:26. 17:10; 19:26; Deuteronomy 15:23.
At the Last Supper there was No literal drinking of blood. The wine stood for the blood.
Just like the bread was Not literal flesh. - Luke 22:19-20
Just as the cup of blessing was Not a literal cup - 1st Corinthians 10:16
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Besides Acts 15:20 so does so does Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 7:26. 17:10; 19:26; Deuteronomy 15:23.
At the Last Supper there was No literal drinking of blood. The wine stood for the blood.
Just like the bread was Not literal flesh. - Luke 22:19-20
Just as the cup of blessing was Not a literal cup - 1st Corinthians 10:16
As I have inquired, if I understand correctly, those in the churches who believe they are drinking Christ's blood know they are drinking wine (at least at first) and they BELIEVE I think (not sure) that it literally turns to blood. Not all who drink the cup believe the wine turns to blood, again, as I understand it. They understand it is symbolic. And really it is very serious.
 
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Sargonski

Well-Known Member
This has always struck me as one of the biggest holes in Christianity. The claim, after all, is that this is THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD!!
So, if any of us here had experienced a Resurrection of the Son of the Almighty God that we had devoted 3 years of our lives to - how many nanoseconds would it take for us to SPRINT to the nearest pen and parchment and start writing this down - and make as many copies as humanly possible?

That it instead took decades, I always leave for more credulous minds to explain…


Well .. dispite Disciple John not authoring the book by his name .. pseudepigrapha .. this happened with many of the Pauline Epistles as well .. Peter and so on.

However .. if we hearken back to the original story .. the one with no virgin birth .. no physical resurrection (Jesus walking around in the flesh after death) .. Jesus a man of 30 - adopted by a God --then after the traditional ritual where Jesus is tested by another son of God .. upon which he comes out of the desert after 40 days .. surviving the ritual and then goes on to be a great wonder worker - a mystical healer and Teacher .. who spoke the word of the Supreme One (who was not YHWH) through the Spirit

So .. a fairly cool story thus far .. and when we add to it the OT ..and the many Gods and activities from that story to which Jesus is linked being a High Priest forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek.. giving us a clue and explanation of who the God of Jesus was .. as per scripture and Biblical History and Archaeology.

The Plot thickens does it not .. once we dispense with the Pauline Gibberish and the later mysteries of John ..where Jesus is turned from a man who was adopted by God to.... Pre-existent with God. a Helenistic Platonic idea trying to sell the new religion to the masses using terminology of which they were already familiar.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
As I have inquired, if I understand correctly, those in the churches who believe they are drinking Christ's blood know they are drinking wine (at least at first) and they BELIEVE I think (not sure) that it literally turns to blood. Not all who drink the cup believe the wine turns to blood, again, as I understand it. They understand it is symbolic. And really it is very serious.
One senior high school student asked the priest if the wine turns to Christ's blood then how is it that the priest can get drunk on the communion blood ?
Perhaps that is why some churches use styrofoam-looking wafers in place of bread and wine.
Biblically the Last Supper had literal bread and wine.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Paul has a huge diatribe about circumcision, basically asks why they don't cut the whole thing off....

It's a bit weird, but defintitely more than a marketing ploy.
Not forgetting 1 Corinthians 7 where Paul sets out the rules of "Christian marriage" ─ probably not as archaic as it sounds in the days before effective contraception. Note how verses 29 and 31 echo the apocalyptic assertions of Jesus in Mark, Matthew and Luke ─ where Jesus assures his hearers that the Kingdom will be established in the lifetime of some of his hearers. (It's not in John, last written of the gospels, because by the 90s CE, when John was written, it clearly wasn't going to happen.)

1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.​
2 But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.​
3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.​
4 For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.​
6 I say this by way of concession, not of command.​
7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.​
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.​
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.​
10 To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband
11 (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) ─ and that the husband should not divorce his wife.​
12 To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.​
13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him.​
14 For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy.​
15 But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace.​
16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?​
17 Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.​
18 Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.​
19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.​
20 Every one should remain in the state in which he was called.​
21 Were you a slave when called? Never mind. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.​
22 For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ.
23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.​
24 So, brethren, in whatever state each was called, there let him remain with God.​
25 Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.​
26 I think that in view of the present distress it is well for a person to remain as he is.​
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage.​
28 But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a girl marries she does not sin. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.
29 I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none,​
30 and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods,​
31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away.
32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;​
33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,​
34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.​
35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.​
36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin.​
37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.​
38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.​
39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If the husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.​
40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.​
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The original "oral tradition" by Jesus and Apostles is very good. I agree most everyone! :)

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Matthew 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2 Thessalonians 2:14-15 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Matthew 15:3-20 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
To understand the word of God is a wonderful thing.
 
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