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Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
John 1:3 (New World Translation) All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
You're right about John 1:3. I was talking about John 1:1 and made a mistake. :) There are other translations.
  • 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
  • 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
  • 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)
  • 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
There are more, but if you like, we can look at those for a while. Or, not at all. Your choice.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
I hate to interfere, but "heir of all things" should tell you something. In other words, an heir is GIVEN things.
P.S. Jesus did not grab things, or seize them, like Satan did.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
by the way, he is a she (in my case). Just so you know.
Ohhhhh so sorry. I'm embarrassed. This forum does not indicate whether a user is male or female on the pages we read, and being a boomer, I was schooled that "he" is the default. I have to warn you, I have a terrible memory. It took me many months to remember that Rival was a she. So I'm going to do my best, but if I screw up, please do not hesitate to correct me, and know that it is not deliberate.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ohhhhh so sorry. I'm embarrassed. This forum does not indicate whether a user is male or female on the pages we read, and being a boomer, I was schooled that "he" is the default. I have to warn you, I have a terrible memory. It took me many months to remember that Rival was a she. So I'm going to do my best, but if I screw up, please do not hesitate to correct me, and know that it is not deliberate.
That's ok. When I was in school I tried hard to remember what I was supposed to in order to pass a test. But I managed to. Here's a little joke: a schoolmate asked his friend if he could come over and play for a while. And the friend said "I'd like to but it will have to wait a few days. I have to teach my grandparents how to use their smartphone."
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
So then all those examining the issue should decide. And I'm sure many educated people decided against Semmelweis. He introduced hand washing and many doctors thought he was crazy. Interns and doctors would go from dissecting cadavers to the maternity ward. When he introduced hand washing, the rate of mortality went down dramatically. Yet again, many of his contemporaries thought he was crazy.
Yet according to the Mosaic Law, which dates back many centuries, anyone touching a corpse became unclean for seven days and had to undergo a cleansing procedure that included bathing and washing his garments. During this time, the person was to avoid physical contact with others. I'm sure you can find that in your Bible at Numbers 19:11-22.
So what is this saying to me? That God knew how to protect His people to a large extent before science took hold.
The same can be said for the food laws. When early man began migrating out of Africa they relied heavily on the sea for food. By the time the migration reached the Middle-East, they had deduced shellfish caused sickness and even death, thus many centuries later the people outlawed eating anything of the sea without fins and scales.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The same can be said for the food laws. When early man began migrating out of Africa they relied heavily on the sea for food. By the time the migration reached the Middle-East, they had deduced shellfish caused sickness and even death, thus many centuries later the people outlawed eating anything of the sea without fins and scales.
It doesn't matter. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob outlined in a pretty detailed way what He wanted them to do.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
A person that believes in the Trinity has scriptures to support this belief.

A person that believes Jesus is really God's son has scriptures too.

What would happen if a person collected the scriptures from both persons and drew a new conclusion based on including all the scriptures from both people? A Conclusion based on the scriptures from both sides?

Websites say it is essential to believe in the Holy Trinity. Did Jesus or an Apostle ever say this? Or that 3 are one God all equal and co-eternal?

Is anyone interested in just collecting these scriptures and drawing their own conclusion from them? And sharing with us the conclusion they came up with? :)
Start a new thread question to explore this.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
My conclusion is that Jesus is the Son of God (Psalm 2:7) and did not ever come into existence, begine to exist, iow was always in existence (John 1:3)
You believe that God is ‘Father, Son, and ‘Spirit of God’, yes? Or else define ‘God’ in reference to the three!!

What does it mean to be ‘Son’ of God… in your opinion?

What does it mean to be ‘Spirit’ of God… in your opinion?

What does it mean to be ‘Father’ of God… in your opinion?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Ohhhhh so sorry. I'm embarrassed. This forum does not indicate whether a user is male or female on the pages we read, and being a boomer, I was schooled that "he" is the default. I have to warn you, I have a terrible memory. It took me many months to remember that Rival was a she. So I'm going to do my best, but if I screw up, please do not hesitate to correct me, and know that it is not deliberate.
Best not to refer to posters by gender… best not to refer to other posters in a personal way, at all… or else use the poster’s name with a ‘@‘ before
  • @Soapy is neither trinitarian nor a JW. @Soapy believes Jesus was a man created pure, righteous, sinless, and holy, by means of the Spirit of God, as was the first human being, Adam. Hence, @Soapy presents what scriptures states: that Jesus is called, ‘The Second Adam’, and ‘The Last Adam’.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I hate to interfere, but "heir of all things" should tell you something. In other words, an heir is GIVEN things.
P.S. Jesus did not grab things, or seize them, like Satan did.
True, an heir does not OWN that which is destined for him UNTIL IT IS GIVEN TO HIM.

An heir acquires that which is destined for him AT THE DEATH of ABDICATION (the giving up) of Him who CURRENTLY owns it.

During the reign of Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, her son, Charles, was the ‘crowned’ HEIR to the throne. But he did not own ANYTHING of that which was his mother’s in reference to the monarchy. He owned only that which was the property of the crowned PRINCE.

Jesus Christ was granted the rulership over creation AFTER he conquered the world of Sin, Satan, and Death… which is AT THE END OC TIME… whereafter he took his seat in rulership.

The occasion of him TEMPORARILY RULING for a period of time is underlined by the fact he HANDED BACK that rulership TO THE FATHER after he finished THAT PERIOD.

The full and true rulership is when Jesus Christ takes his seat in rulership ETERNALLY:
  • ‘Your throne, O mighty one, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.’ (Psalm 45:6)
In the first, the temporary rule, is on the Father’s throne - but it’s not the Son’s throne. He only rules from it and later gives it back. When he acquires HIS OWN THRONE, it is an everlasting throne- the throne of King David, a HUMAN THRONE:
  • ‘To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.’ (Rev 3:21)
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son... NIV --John 3:16, Matthew 16:13-16, John 20:17
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” --Matthew 3:17, Luke 9:35

There are several different definitions for being called "Son of God" in the Bible. How do we know for a certain which way applies to Jesus?

I have no doubt, because I let Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in all four Gospels define the words [ Son of God ] in reference to Jesus.

All four Bible writers make it very clear calling Jesus the "Son of God" as well as the Apostle Paul throughout The New Testament, over 40 times in total. I would take all the Apostles advice for a definition before I would take the advice of a definition for Jesus, that is not included in the Holy Scriptures. What do you think?

And the Apostle John comments about his words in the Gospel of John:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
--John 20:31 KJV

How many times does the New Testament Explain Jesus is not really God's Son? Zero!
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Your faith is in the atheism which says that "religion is syncretic."
Seriously? I honestly thought you were smarter than this.
FIRST, all other religions have definitely been demonstrated to be syncretic, hence EVIDENCE.

The OT is incredibly syncretic. It's taught at Yale Divinity, Genesis is a reworking of Mesopotamian stories?

The wisdom books are borrowed -
" Borrowing ideas from Greek philosophers who held that reason bound the universe together, the Wisdom tradition taught that God's Wisdom, Word and Spirit were the ground of cosmic unity.[32] Christianity in turn adopted these ideas and applied them to Jesus: "

". The third unit, Proverbs 22:17–24:22, is headed "bend your ear and hear the words of the wise". A large part of this section is a recasting of a second-millennium BCE Egyptian work, the Instruction of Amenemope, and may have reached the Hebrew author(s) through an Aramaic translation.


We can go DEEP into the scholars who have entire monographs on Greek and Persian influence, like David Litwa, Richard Miller, James Tabor, J.Z. Smith,

the NT is Persian and Greek:


During the period of the Second Temple (c.515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]



Again, this is EVIDENCE.

Then, the 1st Gospel, Mark which closely follows Romulus, OT stories, Paul and other stories, we can also go deep into.
As well as Hellenism from works by Paken and others who decribe the early Greek influenced mystery religions as exactly what is happening in the NT.

EVIDENCE, that syncretic borrowings are happening. No faith. I didn't make it up and hope that it's true. And yes it's absurd that you would even think so. I am truly baffled, is this some type of protective denial mechanism? Didn't you give ma a hard time for posting scholarship? For the exact reason people wouldn't flake out and call it faith, I provide evidence. And yet.........


The Egyptians know of a group of people in Canaan where they should be according to the Bible and politically as they should be according to the Bible. "a loosely affilitated tribal confederation".
Merneptah witnesses to the truth of the history in the Bible.


Archaeology witnesses to the falsehood of the early scriptures.

"William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people."



and no, Merneptah does not prove anything about cooming from Egypt. It actually backs up archaeology which shows through archaeology, DNA and more that they came from Canaan cities and there was no conquest.
Biblically the Hebrews left Egypt about 1450 BC and were not then known as Israelites. There is an inscription on the Egyptian Soleb Temple about a nomadic group of people whose God was Yahweh around 1st quarter of the 14th century BC (around 1375 BC) This imo was Israel in Canaan as a nomadic people, defeating Canaanite cities and beginning to settle there. There was no land called the land of Yahweh, so the name Yahweh was the God of those people.
The consensus in scholarship,

Canaanites Were Israelites & There Was No Exodus




Prof. Joel Baden


1:20 DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites. Israelites ARE Canaanites who moved to a different place.

6:10 Consensus. Biblical story of Exodus and people coming from Egypt and taking over through battle is not true. With slight variations here and there basically everyone will tell you they gradually came from the coastlands into the highlands. Canaanites moved away to the highlands and slowly became a unified nation after first splitting into tribes.

No Israelites until after 1000 BCE.

18:18 Isaiah 1 is 8th century. Ch 40 is suddenly different. Cyrus shows up, enter end times, Persian influence. Messianic concepts.


The only reason one would not see this is if committed to the idea that it’s not written in separate parts.


YHWH in Genesis is El the Highest God. That is who YHWH is, the Most High God, but nobody at that time used the name YHWH.
El was the father of the Gods in that region an an early variant of Deuteronomy shows El gave Yahweh Israel as his inheritance.

"Scholars have long suspected that El, not Yahweh, was the original God of the people known in the Bible as "Israel"; his name not only occurs in the traditions of the patriarchs, but is embedded in the name if Israel itself. (yisra-el), and is explicitly revealed in the divine name of a temple Jacob is said to have built at the ancient city of Shechem, in what is now West Bank. "He erected a temple there and called it "El, god of Israel. Yahweh would eventually come to ursurp his father El by supplanting him as the head of the pantheon. But quite how this happened remains frustratingly unclear..........the need for kings to exhibit themselves as warriors endorsed by fearsome fighters, Yahweh, a storm god, was naturally a god of warfare, equipped with weapons of thunder, lightning and rain clouds, and it was Yahweh's personal patronage the kings of Israel and Judah claimed."
Professor Stavrakopoulou




Yes the Israelites and Canaanites did their syncretic thing and made YHWH into a Canaanite God who probably had Ashera as consort. That sort of thing is in the pages of the Bible narrative and those whose faith is that there is no God turn it around and say that the Bible history is false and it did not happen that way, but that the Bible history was made up later, just as you have done.
No that is what the vast amount of evidence shows.

Yahweh was a warrior in other cultures, part of a pantheon. His name was Yaho, Yahu or Yah in early Hebrew.
Before this we have Ugaritic pantheon, typical of Levantine religions, where we first see Yahweh.

The Bible history is false, it's a later interpretation and doesn't represent all of the evidence.

Again, different scholar, similar info

The Real Origins of Ancient Israel




Lester L. Grabbe


Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism at the University of Hull, England



10:21 Abraham is probably a fictional character, a foundation myth/character developed for theological and philosophical reasons. The Biblical text was not written down until 7/8th century from oral stories. Abraham was an envisioned character who did things but likely is a literary invention. Anachronisms in his story show they were developed later on.


His story was likely developed with the oral history. Hebrew language was developed around the 7/8th century.



21:34 we have enough historical information to know there was no Exodus and early Israel was in Canaan.



33:43 Genesis uses what we would call plagiarism from Mesopotamian literature.


Plagiarism as an idea was not around back then.



38:30 When it comes to the flood story Noah is “almost exact” to the older flood stories.


Hebrew story is probably a borrowing from Mesopotamia. The creation story was influenced by Mesopotamian creation myths.



47:35 Yahweh possibly borrowed from Egyptian text (Yahweh from south)



51:20 original text appears Yahweh was given Israel from the head deity El. Appears authors tried to remove these early beliefs from scripture but missed some references.


Yahweh is also a “son” of El.



1:01:01. Israel was Canaanite, they were people who lived in Canaan but made Canaanites the villain in their stories.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Of course scholarship that does not allow for the existence, the truth of anything supernatural, including any gods, analyses the evidence as if the YHWH story in the Bible is not true and comes up with their own version of history which does not need any gods, but which tells us that man made up god stories and specifically that Israel made up their history and theology after having been influenced by other cultures.

There is no evidence El, Baal, Ashera or any of the gods were real. Same goes for Yahweh. No other nation was like "hey the god in that other nation is actually real!!"
It's all just mythology.


The archaeology reveals there was no exodus, they came from Canaanite lands, were seperate city-states. Were conquered over and over.

There is no more any Yahweh in history that Zeus.
Do you expect scholars to be looking at Krishna as if he was real, Mormonism as if it's true and every other folk tale that looks like a newer version of the last religion?
Why is the Bible completely wrong? Hundreds of prophecies that didn't happen, why does it use older myths in Genesis, forge Daniel, adopt Persian beliefs and then Greek Hellenism.


There is zero evidence it's real and more than enough it's a myth that borrowed theology.


Scholars just look for evidence. Which you ignore

Even if they allowed for Yahweh to be real. Why does he resemble all of the Near Eastern deities and use the same stories? And terrible cosmology? Why is it the scholars fault it looks exactly like a myth? Why does it look like it's all borrowed? Justin Martyr said it looks that way because the devil did that to fool Christians. At least he was honest that it does look that way. Denial seems pointless.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The Jesus Myth idea is not seen as sensible by most historians and when the evidence is considered.
First ALL mainstream historians consider the Gospel Jesus to be a myth, so arguing mythicism is pointless.





All mainstream scholars agree Jesus as demigod is a mythical savior deity. They all agree the Gospels are myths about him. They simply conclude that those myths contain some kernels of fact, and that Jesus was originally not a flying, magic-wielding supergod. But they agree the super-Jesus, the only Jesus about whom we have any accounts at all, didn’t exist. They think some mundane Jesus did, who was dressed up with those legends and beliefs later. But that still admits he belongs to a reference class that the Hannibals of the world do not: that of mythically-attested savior gods who speak to their followers in dreams and visions. So we actually need more evidence for Jesus than we have for Hannibal, to be sure Jesus isn’t just like all other mythical savior gods, who also had amazing stories about them set on earth history, and who also appeared to people in dreams and visions—yet never plausibly existed.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Of course you have to deny the legitimacy of the OT and NT if you are an atheist and as many atheist do,
Of course you have to answer with a strawman and a red herring as many religious folks do.


I deny the fact that it's anything but a syncretic mythology. But that is because I studied the evidence.
That is why Dr Kipp Davis, Dr Richard Miller, Bart Ehrman, Dr Collins and many other scholars were evangelical Christian fundamentalists before starting their PhD program and were atheist when they finished. Because the evidence was demonstrated to them.

I don't really deny anything, I affirm the EVIDENCE from many, many, many angles. The literary studies, archaeology, syncretism, borrowings from Persia, Greek Hellenism, Romulus, anonymous gospels written as Greek historical fiction using Greek salvation/savior demigods, everything is borrowed.

Yes, I am truthful about evidence and can demonstrate it. Of course if I post too much you will complain. Because when you don't have an argument that is what you do, tapdance, move the goal post.


You haven't yet given an argument?????? You are just upset I follow evidence and don't praise your fiction? That isn't an argument?
I'm waiting. Atheists do this and that........ok, show me why they are wrong, with evidence.






make up your own story to explain the OT and NT.
Is this a strawman or just a straight lie? Not sure.


I NEVER made up one single fact about the history or archaeology of the Bible. You are a dishonest person who needs to lie to have any discussion it seems.

Every fact has been backed up with scholarship and evidence.





Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Professor Hebrew Bible




the Bible draws on much older traditions and deities. The God of Judaism and Christianity is a post-Biblical deity. The deity we find reflected in the biblical text is a deity who is very much part and parcel of a polytheistic system. He was not this solitary deity, he was networked into a much broader household of deities.





Dr Tabor on Hellenism, transcribed below are the important details. At 47 min he shows the difference between the OT theology and NT theology which is all borrowed from Hellenism. I’m leaving out the link to the video because I always get flagged as spam if I link to videos. I





Death & Afterlife: Do Christians Follow Plato rather than Jesus or Paul? lecture on youtube

Dr James Tabor


5:40
1st Hebrew view of cosmology and afterlife. The dead are sleeping in Sheol, earth is above, the firmament is above that and divides the upper ocean from falling to earth,


7:50 A linear version emerged with time and an end times and final Judgment.


Genesis says you will return to dust.


9:00 Translation of Genesis 2:6 God breathes the breath of life into Adam (giving him a soul). The actual Hebrew translation is “living-breathing”, meaning all life is this.


10:40 Hellenistic period - the Hebrew religion adopts the Greek ideas.


Sources the Britannica article and explains it’s an excellent resource from an excellent scholar.


13:35 In the Hellenistic period the common perception is not the Hebrew view, it’s the idea that the soul belongs in Heaven.


14:15 The basic Hellenistic idea is taken into the Hebrew tradition. Salvation in the Hellenistic world is how do you save your soul and get to Heaven. How to transcend the physical body.


Greek tomb “I am a child of earth and starry heaven but heaven alone is my home”


15:46 Does this sound familiar, Christian hymns - “this world is not my home, I’m a pilgrim passing through, Jesus will come and take you home”.


Common theme that comes from the Hellenistic religions. Immortal souls trapped in a human body etc…


47:15 Hellenistic Greek view of cosmology


Material world/body is a prison of the soul


Humans are immortal souls, fallen into the darkness of the lower world


Death sets the soul free


No human history, just a cycle of birth, death, rebirth


Immortality is inherent for all humans


Salvation is escape to Heaven, the true home of the immortal soul


Humans are fallen and misplaced


Death is a stripping of the body so the soul can be free


Death is a liberating friend to be welcomed


Asceticism is the moral idea for the soul


49:35 Genesis view


Creation/body very good, procreation good


Humans are “living breathers”, akin to animals, mortal, dust of the earth


Death is dark silent “sleeping in the dust”


Human history moves toward a perfected new age/creation


Salvation is eternal life in the perfected world of the new creation


Humans belong on earth


Resurrection brings a new transformed glorious spiritual body


Death is an enemy


Physical life and sensory pleasures are good
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, and according to research posted in BAR, it is likely that YHWH was originally a war deity within the beliefs of those in the southern Arabian Peninsula that was eventually brought north possibly by Jewish traders.
World History has him possibly in Egypt as well:




Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh.
Yahweh in Egypt

“Shasu of Yahweh” at the base of one of the columns of the temple in the hypostyle hall. The temple was built by Amenhotep III (r. 1386-1353 BCE) and the reference to Yahweh established that this god was worshipped by another people long before the time when the events of the biblical narratives are thought to have taken place.



As it has been established they were a nomadic people, attempts have been made to link them with the Hebrews and with the Habiru, a group of renegades in the Levant, but these claims have been refuted. Whoever the Shasu were, they were not Hebrew and the Habiru seem to be Canaanites who simply refused to conform to the customs of the land, not a separate ethnic group.

The discovery of Amenhotep III's mention of the Shasu of Yahweh placed the god much earlier in history than had been accepted previously but also suggested that Yahweh was perhaps not native to Canaan. This fit with the theory that Yahweh was a desert god whom the Hebrews adopted in their exodus from Egypt to Canaan. The descriptions of Yahweh appearing as a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day as well as the other fire-imagery from the Book of Exodus were interpreted by some scholars as suggesting a storm god or weather-deity and, particularly, a desert god since Yahweh is able to direct Moses to water sources (Exodus 17:6 and Numbers 20). It is generally accepted in the modern day, however, that Yahweh originated in southern Canaan as a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon and the Shasu, as nomads, most likely acquired their worship of him during their time in the Levant.

The Moabite Stone has also been reinterpreted in light of recent scholarship which demonstrates that the people of Moab also worshipped Yahweh and the reference to Mesha taking the vessels of Yahweh to Kemosh most likely means he repossessed what he felt belonged to the Moabites, not that he conquered Israel and its god in the name of his own.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
“… I (YHWH) WILL BECOME his father, and he WILL BECOME my son” (Hebrews 1:5)

“He WILL BE great and WILL BE called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God (YHWH) WILL GIVE HIM the throne of his father, [King] David.” (Luke 1:32)

“This is my Son, the one who I (YHWH) have chosen.” (Luke 9:35)

How do these verses show pre-existence?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
World History has him possibly in Egypt as well:




Although the Bible, and specifically the Book of Exodus, presents Yahweh as the god of the Israelites, there are many passages which make clear that this deity was also worshipped by other peoples in Canaan. Amzallag notes that the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites all worshipped Yahweh to one degree or another and that there is evidence the Edomites who operated the mines at Timnah converted an earlier Egyptian temple of Hathor to the worship of Yahweh.
Yahweh in Egypt

“Shasu of Yahweh” at the base of one of the columns of the temple in the hypostyle hall. The temple was built by Amenhotep III (r. 1386-1353 BCE) and the reference to Yahweh established that this god was worshipped by another people long before the time when the events of the biblical narratives are thought to have taken place.



As it has been established they were a nomadic people, attempts have been made to link them with the Hebrews and with the Habiru, a group of renegades in the Levant, but these claims have been refuted. Whoever the Shasu were, they were not Hebrew and the Habiru seem to be Canaanites who simply refused to conform to the customs of the land, not a separate ethnic group.

The discovery of Amenhotep III's mention of the Shasu of Yahweh placed the god much earlier in history than had been accepted previously but also suggested that Yahweh was perhaps not native to Canaan. This fit with the theory that Yahweh was a desert god whom the Hebrews adopted in their exodus from Egypt to Canaan. The descriptions of Yahweh appearing as a pillar of fire by night and cloud by day as well as the other fire-imagery from the Book of Exodus were interpreted by some scholars as suggesting a storm god or weather-deity and, particularly, a desert god since Yahweh is able to direct Moses to water sources (Exodus 17:6 and Numbers 20). It is generally accepted in the modern day, however, that Yahweh originated in southern Canaan as a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon and the Shasu, as nomads, most likely acquired their worship of him during their time in the Levant.

The Moabite Stone has also been reinterpreted in light of recent scholarship which demonstrates that the people of Moab also worshipped Yahweh and the reference to Mesha taking the vessels of Yahweh to Kemosh most likely means he repossessed what he felt belonged to the Moabites, not that he conquered Israel and its god in the name of his own.

Absolutely. And believe it or not, I just read another article on this in BAR this morning saying much the same.
 
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