Why so little Christian anti-capitalism?

[MonkeyFire]

I believe in passive Jesus... So yea I'm that.

 

[dianaiad]

Wasn't me. I don't give either Clinton much thought unless others bring them up. The impeachment thing feels like 10,000 years ago to me. I was still in HS and had no opinion of it then.

I wasn't.

And I got into a lot of arguments about it then...I was in trouble from both sides.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I noticed a few threads lately talking about the command to "be fruitful and multiply" and it got me to thinking:

Maybe they take capitalism out of the whole idea of 'being fruitful,' as being fruitful might be interpreted as as separate injunction apart from the multiplying. They might see rather, as stating that you should become successfully industrious or inventive in order to aid that act of spreading across the world. That might have sort of been how I always read the idea of 'being fruitful.'

God's curse on Eve as she's thrown out of the garden - i.e. that she will have to suffer pain in childbirth - even gets brought up sometimes in the context of whether anaesthetic should be used for people giving birth.

That's a new one to me

... but what I never hear Christians talking about is God's curse on Adam: that he will have to work "by the sweat of his brow." Why not?

It seems to me that this is just as much a repudiation of earning income not tied to labour (e.g. return on capital invested) as "be fruitful and multiply" is a repudiation of birth control.

Well stated , I will have to read some responses because that's a pretty good point there I suppose

 

[amorphous_constellation]

For example let's say a Christian came into a small fortune somehow or other. They could just do a really good deed and give it all to some charity; which would be fine. But on the other hand they could invest it and give from the profit to charity.

And who really does that with most of a fortune? Probably not too many people. I live near a lake surrounded by the occasional church, but mostly houses surround the lake that are physically bigger or as big as those churches. They average from half a mill to I think almost 2 million dollars occasionally in real-estate. So who does the kinda thing you're talking about

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And yet the Democrats supported Clinton.....he and his wife took nearly $200,000 worth of stuff that they ended up being shamed into giving back. As well, he and his stuff vandalized the White House...

Oh they're all rich and have got dirt on them, whatever side their on. What are you following all that crap for, if I have read anymore of it on the internet I'm moving to the middle of a jungle.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Actually, it has meant precisely that for most of the history of Christianity:

Though attempts to treat the pain of childbirth were made in many ancient cultures, a biblical misogyny infiltrated the medical care given to laboring women for centuries in Western society. Christians portrayed pain relief in childbirth as blasphemous, believing it contravened God’s punishment for Eve’s original sin: “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children” (Genesis 3:16). According to Steve Ainsworth at Midwives magazine, incense and prayer (yeah, really) were an accepted analgesic, but “anything else might upset divine intent.”

Wow is that weird and awful. I think we might identify a predecessor to the birth control debate, which probably was the medieval equivalent to praying to satan, totally unspeakable.

Well there are bible verses about 'observing the ant' and idle hands being being the devil's workshop or something. I think what modern day Christians are really paranoid about, is being idle. That's why trump's trying to save a bunch of jobs that are getting automated, because our culture probably has some extreme cultural paranoia about ultimately having machines do things for us. That's what it's going to come down to however. The days of a heavy need for utilitarian work are coming to an end

 

[dianaiad]

Oh they're all rich and have got dirt on them, whatever side their on. What are you following all that crap for, if I have read anymore of it on the internet I'm moving to the middle of a jungle.

Good luck with that. They have satellite access to the internet now.

On the other hand, you could just shut off the computer and unplug the TV set.

 

[dianaiad]

Wow is that weird and awful. I think we might identify a predecessor to the birth control debate, which probably was the medieval equivalent to praying to satan, totally unspeakable.

Well there are bible verses about 'observing the ant' and idle hands being being the devil's workshop or something. I think what modern day Christians are really paranoid about, is being idle. That's why trump's trying to save a bunch of jobs that are getting automated, because our culture probably has some extreme cultural paranoia about ultimately having machines do things for us. That's what it's going to come down to however. The days of a heavy need for utilitarian work are coming to an end

THAT is a cultural revolution that has been in train for a couple/three centuries or so. The Luddites couldn't stop it....

The problem is that those jobs are being done by people who, without them, wouldn't be able to afford the products automated machinery would produce.

And 'idleness' is a problem. Or rather, boredom without the means of alleviating it is a problem. It's not a 'Christian" thing. It's a people thing.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And 'idleness' is a problem. Or rather, boredom without the means of alleviating it is a problem. It's not a 'Christian" thing. It's a people thing.

I disagree, this whole idea of being dissatisfied unless there is constant heavy labor and expansion of any kind is totally an invention of the Christian & western ethos. Toil away like adam, manufacture endless tons of crap, live and expand everywhere you possibly can. Anything, anything, other just relaxing while nature does the work, anything but questioning our real role or stopping to take a deep look at consciousness.

 

[dianaiad]

I disagree, this whole idea of being dissatisfied unless there is constant heavy labor and expansion of any kind is totally an invention of the Christian & western ethos. Toil away like adam, manufacture endless tons of crap, live and expand everywhere you possibly can. Anything, anything, other just relaxing while nature does the work, anything but questioning our real role or stopping to take a deep look at consciousness.

People who relax and let nature do its work starve, go naked and get ill. If they don't, it's because OTHER people do not 'relax and let nature do its work."

I have a sign on my wall. It reads "the results you don't get are most likely the result of the work you don't do."

I also passed a couple of beggars on my way home. They didn't look very happy. They would prefer to relax and let nature do the work' than get up and mow a lawn for $10 bucks. The problem is, 'nature' in their cases, is the kind heartedness of people who put a buck in their hands: people who did NOT 'relax and let nature do its work."

And yes, I have handed money to beggars. Not today, because I didn't have any money. I have also offered to pay them money if they would mow my lawn. I've never had one accept my lawn mowing offer.

I also know a couple of people who 'live off the grid' and do not accept government funds; they are entirely self sufficient. They don't use public utilities, have dug their own well, built their own homes, and in one case, made their own clothing (from the fiber from their own sheep and cotton) and shoes (leather from their own animals).

NOBODY works harder than they do.

 

[Shad]

Still, AFAICT, we never hear Christian thought leaders condemning "passive" income or earning return on capital.

So what gives?

Emergence of the middle class, industrialization and consumerism. The average Christian in the West had a greater potential to gain disposable income thus could purchase wants instead of only needs or barely getting by. Society outpaced the Church as people wanted more to buy wants. The Church was on the wrong side of history for a lot rebellions, revolts, reforms, etc which formed the foundations or precursors of modern democracies (loose) in the 18/19 centuries. It conformed to the masses after the fact lest it become more of a relic.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

People who relax and let nature do its work starve, go naked and get ill. If they don't, it's because OTHER people do not 'relax and let nature do its work."

Oh whatever. You read any early history on america? They talk about untold swarms of birds, fish, and buffalo. Covering every inch of one's vision. Don't tell me nature couldn't produce

I also know a couple of people who 'live off the grid' and do not accept government funds; they are entirely self sufficient. They don't use public utilities, have dug their own well, built their own homes, and in one case, made their own clothing (from the fiber from their own sheep and cotton) and shoes (leather from their own animals).

Yeah, yeah, I've watched plenty of stuff on people who do that kind of thing. They know what they're leaving behind, the hour commutes on black ice in gridlock, the subway stations, the bills. I know exactly what they're up to, because half my family has a foot in that world. They have no idea what city life is like, that's for sure. They wouldn't last two weeks out here

I also passed a couple of beggars on my way home. They didn't look very happy. They would prefer to relax and let nature do the work' than get up and mow a lawn for $10 bucks. The problem is, 'nature' in their cases, is the kind heartedness of people who put a buck in their hands: people who did NOT 'relax and let nature do its work."

Should we even be cutting back our lawns. Is that healthy for insects, how much carbon is expelled by lawn mowers every year. It's just a stupid thing we do because of blight laws, or to impress neighbors. See your friends probably don't care about any of that crap. It's just another thing those lucky people get to ignore

 

[dianaiad]

Oh whatever. You read any early history on america? They talk about untold swarms of birds, fish, and buffalo. Covering every inch of one's vision. Don't tell me nature couldn't produce



Yeah, yeah, I've watched plenty of stuff on people who do that kind of thing. They know what they're leaving behind, the hour commutes on black ice in gridlock, the subway stations, the bills. I know exactly what they're up to, because half my family has a foot in that world. They have no idea what city life is like, that's for sure. They wouldn't last two weeks out here



Should we even be cutting back our lawns. Is that healthy for insects, how much carbon is expelled by lawn mowers every year. It's just a stupid thing we do because of blight laws, or to impress neighbors. See your friends probably don't care about any of that crap. It's just another thing those lucky people get to ignore

Uh huh.

Tell you what: you go not do whatever it is you don't want to do, and look really closely at what other people must do to keep you alive, never mind clothed, fed...and able to post on internet forums.

 

[Woberts]

The flaw is tradition, as is always the case with these sort of people. A rational Christian would be against capitalism, as it is contrary to the teachings. Back in the time of the USSR, the problem was with how they unshackled themselves to religion, and with that its many downsides. Now, it's just because that's 'how it's always been done.'

 

[Muffled]

I noticed a few threads lately talking about the command to "be fruitful and multiply" and it got me to thinking:

The Garden of Eden story describes God saying many different things to Adam and Eve, but Christians seem to give them... varying weight.

"Be fruitful and multiply" gets a lot of play. It's brought up frequently in the context of family planning. It even served as the main inspiration for an entire Christian movement (the Quiverfull movement).

God's curse on Eve as she's thrown out of the garden - i.e. that she will have to suffer pain in childbirth - even gets brought up sometimes in the context of whether anaesthetic should be used for people giving birth.

... but what I never hear Christians talking about is God's curse on Adam: that he will have to work "by the sweat of his brow." Why not?

It seems to me that this is just as much a repudiation of earning income not tied to labour (e.g. return on capital invested) as "be fruitful and multiply" is a repudiation of birth control.

Still, AFAICT, we never hear Christian thought leaders condemning "passive" income or earning return on capital.

So what gives?

I believe it could be the parable of the talents. At least the person given one could have invested it and got some return on his investment.

 

[Muffled]

"You cannot serve God and mammon" seems pretty anti-capitalist to me.

I believe that is a dichotomy. Serving God can be a full time affair, not leaving time to make money or it can be a part time affair where you can do both. The trouble is that you can't do both at the same time.

 

[Muffled]

And what's horribly ironic is the sheer numbers of Christian evangelicals who supported, and support, Trump.
Trump is the High Priest of Mammon.

Money, Fame, Sex, Deceit. He's the master!

And the darling of Evangelical Christians, what's wrong with that? Nothing, that's what. Christians are, and always have been, the kind of people Jesus despised. From medieval popes to Trump, Christians have always been about temporal riches.

Mostly, not all Christians are like that. But that is what the simple reading of the Bible teaches.
Except for Jesus, He didn't say that. Christians don't care about that.
Tom

I believe it is a matter of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God;s.

 

[columbus]

I believe it is a matter of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God;s.

Umm,
Could you be a bit more clear about what you mean by that?

What I'm interpreting it to mean is that hypocrisy is OK as long as you're a believer in the correct interpretation of the correct religion.
Perhaps that isn't what you meant.
Tom