Why Religious Leaders Have Rarely Been Moral Leaders

[joe1776]

Humanity is, and always has been making moral progress. We are treating each other better than at any time in the past. Compare the moral code of today's world to say the Middle Ages.

Arrogance, probably driven by the need to feel superior to others, is the arch troublemaker within us all, varying in degree from mild to severe. When we look for a cause for a moral failing, arrogance should be our prime suspect.

Our religion is better than your religion!
Our nation is better than your nation!
Our race is better than your race!
Our tribe is better than your tribe!

Group pride, thought to be a virtue, is not. We know intuitively that the man extremely proud of being Irish and Catholic would be just as proud if, by some twist of fate, he had been raised to think of himself as German and Lutheran. He thinks of his groups as wonderful because they're HIS groups and HE'S wonderful. Group pride is disguised arrogance.

When our arrogant nature is satisfied, we gloat. Highly arrogant people often resist change because it feels good to feel superior.

Since two attitudes can't occupy the same space, forming the habit of treating others as equals will automatically displace arrogant attitudes. This has been happening in public policy the world over. People whose ancestors were slaves now have equal rights. Women, homosexuals and minorities are gaining equal rights as well.

The ambition to lead and gain a measure of power and control over others is a symptom of arrogance. Leaders sometimes mean well and sometimes they don't; but we can't, as a general rule, expect them to be moral leaders since most were corrupted in the womb when they inherited an inclination toward arrogance from their parents.

The Abrahamic religions were founded by arrogant leaders who meant well, but they were not moral leaders. They then passed the torch down to men who were just like them. When moral progress has been made on a global scale, religion's leaders have typically lagged behind quoting scripture in protest.

That's how I see it. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Sunstone]

It seemed that the need to legitimatize, support, and to some extent, constrain, elites played -- and still plays -- a significant role in shaping Abrahamic morals and religions. That's to say, they are not entirely shaped by the intention to provide for the well being of the masses of people, but rather, the intention of propping up the social order has always played a significant role in shaping them.

 

[joe1776]

It seemed that the need for social control played -- and still plays -- a significant role in shaping Abrahamic morals and religions.

We agree that religion's morals are being shaped. But, I think conscience is doing the shaping and not social pressures.

It would be fun to debate that with you but it would take this thread off on a major tangent.

 

[Sunstone]

We agree that religion's morals are being shaped. But, I think conscience is doing the shaping and not social pressures.

It would be fun to debate that with you but it would take this thread off on a major tangent.

I wouldn't debate with you until you understood my position, which you do not. So no worries about taking this thread off topic.

 

[Kemosloby]

Our morality is better than your morality!! lol

 

[joe1776]

I wouldn't debate with you until you understood my position, which you do not. So no worries about taking this thread off topic.

I meant my comment to be a polite way to recognize your post. Nothing more.

 

[Sunstone]

We are treating each other better than at any time in the past.

With qualifications, I'd say there is a sense in which you are right about that.

 

[joe1776]

Our morality is better than your morality!! lol

I recognize your comment as a snide remark, but who is making that claim? Who's the "our?"

 

[Kemosloby]

I recognize your comment as a snide remark, but who is making that claim? Who's the "our?"

It was meant to show you how you're falling in the same trap. But anyway. It could just be the world seems more peaceful than the middle ages because of improved weaponry. What took years in the middle ages can be done it a couple days with a machine gun.

 

[joe1776]

It was meant to show you how you're falling in the same trap.

I don't see how, but anyway...

But anyway. It could just be the world seems more peaceful than the middle ages because of improved weaponry. What took years in the middle ages can be done it a couple days with a machine gun.

I think you have it backwards. The fact that fewer people can do more damage today with improved weaponry is a fact that makes it more difficult to see that the moral behavior of average human beings today is better than it was in the past. Just imagine how much damage the troublemakers of the Middle Ages could have caused with today's weapons.

 

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, Abrahamic religion is not as focused on morality as some others are. It tends to value authority and, sometimes, ready-made answers over morality.

In practice, that often translates into lagging behind the moral attainment of the societies they are immersed into.

 

[joe1776]

The way I see it, Abrahamic religion is not as focused on morality as some others are. It tends to value authority and, sometimes, ready-made answers over morality.

In practice, that often translates into lagging behind the moral attainment of the societies they are immersed into.

Arrogant leaders value their authority highly. They get miffed if they don't get blind obedience from their followers.

 

[LuisDantas]

What I don't quite understand is why that flies so much.

It is sort of self-evident from a simple reading of Abrahamic scripture that it does not have a lot of interest in morality.

 

[joe1776]

What I don't quite understand is why that flies so much.

It is sort of self-evident from a simple reading of Abrahamic scripture that it does not have a lot of interest in morality.

While moral guidance isn't its primary focus, it does give some. Some of it good, and some of it bad. Since it isn't perfect, the claim that it was divinely inspired suffers.

The terrible moral advice in the Torah and the Old Testament is evidence that the authors were citizens of a morally immature culture. It's also evidence supporting my claim that humanity has made moral progress.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Hinduism ethics and morality and religious faith are two different things and are considered separate. The first is 'dharma' (broadly duty and righteousness). That will be common to all, sort of 'minimum common factor' or 'minimum common denominator', like they have in a political coalition. Every one is supposed to follow that. Faith, belief, is known as Pantha (Road) or Mata (Opinion). Every one is free to have his/her own opinion or road to follow. Any God or Goddess (singly or collectively) can be worshiped. We have not tied 'dharma (ethics and morality) to any particular God or Goddess.

 

[columbus]

Our morality is better than your morality!! lol

Here in the western world, this assertion only makes much sense as "Our reason based secular morality is better than your revelation based morality."

For all the failures and moral horrors of Christendom in the last century or two, we are better than we used to be. But the fundamental improvements came from abandoning Scripture as our guide. You won't find fundamental concepts like representative government, gender equality, freedoms of speech and religion, anti-war, or basic human rights in the Bible. Those have been widely adopted by religious people, to the point that religionists will claim that God always meant that. But it isn't true. The monarchy, slavery, oppression of women and nonChristian people, and such, that we have moved away from are the results of traditional Abrahamic morality.
Tom

 

[joe1776]

In Hinduism ethics and morality and religious faith are two different things and are considered separate. The first is 'dharma' (broadly duty and righteousness). That will be common to all, sort of 'minimum common factor' or 'minimum common denominator', like they have in a political coalition. Every one is supposed to follow that. Faith, belief, is known as Pantha (Road) or Mata (Opinion). Every one is free to have his/her own opinion or road to follow. Any God or Goddess (singly or collectively) can be worhiped. We have not tied 'dharma (ethics and morality) to any particular God or Goddess.

Is the caste system a strong source of intolerance?

 

[columbus]

The Abrahamic religions were founded by arrogant leaders who meant well, but they were not moral leaders.

I think that one of the biggest differences is that religion and culture are less synonymous than they used to be, here in the west. Religious leaders used to wield huge political power. The aristocracy supported itself, religious and political elites keeping each other in power for mutual benefit. That power came at the expense of moral leadership, at least by modern secular standards. Back when keeping the peasants in their place could be justified on the basis of helping them reach Heaven, the moral standards were different.
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We agree that religion's morals are being shaped. But, I think conscience is doing the shaping and not social pressures.

Religion's morals/conscience being shaped, or rather both shaped and shifted.
Religious immigration has created a changing religious landscape.
The USA operates as a free-religious market place which allows shaping and shifting to the point that some people just consider themselves as spiritual but Not religious.
Unless damaged, we come equipped with a built-in or in-born conscience.
A person's conscience can become calloused to the point of having No more feeling like flesh branded with a hot iron.
So then, how a conscience is trained shows a conscience can either ' accuse ' actions, or ' excuse ' actions.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What I don't quite understand is why that flies so much.
It is sort of self-evident from a simple reading of Abrahamic scripture that it does not have a lot of interest in morality.

Isn't thou shall Not kill (murder) an interest in morality, besides Not to steal, commit adultery, bear false witness, and Not to covet moral issues, along with the Golden Rule as found in the 19th chapter of Leviticus.