Why no mention of a fiery Hell in the Old Testament?

[Neo Deist]

Ignorant nonsense. See, for example, here. Unless you're willing to argue that the Synoptics were penned "centuries after Jesus' death" you're simply pontificating on things about which you appear to know very little.

Thanks for your opinion, however unimportant and wrong it is.

As far as history goes, I know a great deal more than most, unless they happen to have a PhD on the subject and teach on the university level. The real question is, why would an old Jew care about the Christian concept of hell?

 

[David1967]

The real question is, why would an old Jew care about the Christian concept of hell?

Please be nice. I was looking for good knowledgeable opinions which you both seem to have even if differing views.

 

[David1967]

Ignorant nonsense. See, for example, here. Unless you're willing to argue that the Synoptics were penned "centuries after Jesus' death" you're simply pontificating on things about which you appear to know very little.

Please be nice. I was looking for good knowledgeable opinions which you both seem to have even if differing views.

 

[Emi]

Hell is discussed in the OT, but the reader gets the sense that it was more of a place for the dead, and not necessarily a place for ''punishment.''

Purgatory is discussed, not hell.

 

[Emi]

Then Christians hijacked it, and made up their own story and invented Hell.

I don't believe they hijacked it, but it is an interesting visual to see a large group of people hopping on a book and riding it into the sunset.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was looking for good knowledgeable opinions ...

How would you recognize one?

 

[Rise]

Judaism does not have the concept of hell as eternal torment (Jews can correct me if I am wrong)..

That is not true.

In Rabbinic Judaism there is the concept of "The World to Come" and Gehinnom.
The former refers to two things; the post-resurrection world that is a restoration of the Garden of Eden state we had, and the afterlife place that people go to while they wait for that physical resurrection to take place on earth.
Gehinnom is what Jesus references when he warns of Gehenna - It is a place of suffering, purging fire, and seperation from God, from which you are said to either be purged of sin and go to a heaven-like afterlife or you suffer eternally seperated from God.

Maimonides is regarded as one of the greatest Jewish sages, and he wrote this:

Concerning someone who has an equal number of merits as sins: If his transgressions included never having put on tephillin then he is judged according to his sins but still has a share in the World To Come - every Jew has a share in the World To Come even if he sinned, for it is written, "Your people also shall be righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever". The word `land' here refers to the Land Of Life, namely the World To Come. Similarly, pious gentiles also have a share in the World To Come.

The following types of people have no share in the World to Come, and are cut off, destroyed and excommunicated for ever on account of their very great sins and wickedness: An infidel; a heretic; one who denies the Torah; one who denies that there will be a Resurrection; one who denies that there will be a Redemption; one who converts from Judaism; one who causes a lot of people to sin; one who withdraws from communal ways; one who publicly sins in a defiant way like Jehoiakim did; an informer [against Jews]; one who instills fear in the congregation but not in the Name of God; a murderer; one who relates loshan ho'rah; and one who pulls back his foreskin [in order to cover his brit milah].

You can read more on Gehenna:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

What we have preserved in the Rabbinical writings and traditions is sufficient to demonstrate that the Christian idea of a dualistic afterlife, including resurrection and eternal suffering, is not as far removed from Judaism as some believe.

However, I will go further and point out to you that Rabbinical Judaism doesn't have the final say on what 1st century Jews did or did not believe about the afterlife. 1st century Jews could have actually believed something that is even more in line with what Christians believe.
Rabbincal Judaism did not start to write down the Talmud until the 3rd century AD and continued adding to it by the 6th century AD. So when you say "Judaism believes this", you have to be precise about what you mean by "Judaism" - Because Jews prior to the time of Christ believed differing things. You had the Sadducees who rejected anything spiritual and the resurrection. The Pharisees (Which are probably the closest equivalent to Rabbincal Judaism). The Essenes. Multiple sources of Jewish apocryphal literature paint a picture for us that is consistant with Christian scripture.

But this has nothing to do with "hell" because the theme of good vs. evil, reward and punishment, is found on every populated continent on the planet, and dates back thousands of years. It is a human nature thing.

Biblically this commonality is accounted for. If you go back far enough all religion came down to what Noah passed on to his children, from which point it was corrupted to various extents as people spread out around the world and abandoned the worship of the one true God. Despite this, we see many common details remain intact. An example is the fact that you find stories of the great flood in every culture around the world, no matter how isolated. Some common thread of truth was passed down over the generations and distance even though many details were corrupted along the way.

 

[Neo Deist]

That is not true.

In Rabbinic Judaism there is the concept of "The World to Come" and Gehinnom.
The former refers to two things; the post-resurrection world that is a restoration of the Garden of Eden state we had, and the afterlife place that people go to while they wait for that physical resurrection to take place on earth.
Gehinnom is what Jesus references when he warns of Gehenna - It is a place of suffering, purging fire, and seperation from God, from which you are said to either be purged of sin and go to a heaven-like afterlife or you suffer eternally seperated from God.

Maimonides is regarded as one of the greatest Jewish sages, and he wrote this:

Concerning someone who has an equal number of merits as sins: If his transgressions included never having put on tephillin then he is judged according to his sins but still has a share in the World To Come - every Jew has a share in the World To Come even if he sinned, for it is written, "Your people also shall be righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever". The word `land' here refers to the Land Of Life, namely the World To Come. Similarly, pious gentiles also have a share in the World To Come.

The following types of people have no share in the World to Come, and are cut off, destroyed and excommunicated for ever on account of their very great sins and wickedness: An infidel; a heretic; one who denies the Torah; one who denies that there will be a Resurrection; one who denies that there will be a Redemption; one who converts from Judaism; one who causes a lot of people to sin; one who withdraws from communal ways; one who publicly sins in a defiant way like Jehoiakim did; an informer [against Jews]; one who instills fear in the congregation but not in the Name of God; a murderer; one who relates loshan ho'rah; and one who pulls back his foreskin [in order to cover his brit milah].

You can read more on Gehenna:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

What we have preserved in the Rabbinical writings and traditions is sufficient to demonstrate that the Christian idea of a dualistic afterlife, including resurrection and eternal suffering, is not as far removed from Judaism as some believe.

However, I will go further and point out to you that Rabbinical Judaism doesn't have the final say on what 1st century Jews did or did not believe about the afterlife. 1st century Jews could have actually believed something that is even more in line with what Christians believe.
Rabbincal Judaism did not start to write down the Talmud until the 3rd century AD and continued adding to it by the 6th century AD. So when you say "Judaism believes this", you have to be precise about what you mean by "Judaism" - Because Jews prior to the time of Christ believed differing things. You had the Sadducees who rejected anything spiritual and the resurrection. The Pharisees (Which are probably the closest equivalent to Rabbincal Judaism). The Essenes. Multiple sources of Jewish apocryphal literature paint a picture for us that is consistant with Christian scripture.



Biblically this commonality is accounted for. If you go back far enough all religion came down to what Noah passed on to his children, from which point it was corrupted to various extents as people spread out around the world and abandoned the worship of the one true God. Despite this, we see many common details remain intact. An example is the fact that you find stories of the great flood in every culture around the world, no matter how isolated. Some common thread of truth was passed down over the generations and distance even though many details were corrupted along the way.

Actually, according to what I have read by various rabbis is that there is NOT an eternal torment. There is a 12 month limit, at which point your soul is cleansed and then goes on to "heaven" OR it is destroyed. Having said that, it would appear that individual Jews may have a different opinion, but the religion of Judaism seems to teach this cleansing period.

Now, about Noah...pure fiction. Yes cultures around the world talk about a flood, but that is because ancient cultures lived near water...and floods would happen. There is virtually no evidence for a global flood that covered Mt. Everest. There is evidence of regional floods, such as the Black Sea and ancient shorelines. If you go back far enough, humans walked this earth long before "Noah." Some stories in the Bible simply are not meant to be taken literally...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The concept of hell was a creation by The Church centuries after Jesus' death, for the purposes of fear mongering.

Ignorant nonsense. See, for example, here. Unless you're willing to argue that the Synoptics were penned "centuries after Jesus' death" you're simply pontificating on things about which you appear to know very little.

Thanks for your opinion, however unimportant and wrong it is.

As far as history goes, I know a great deal more than most, ...

Then tell us ('as far as history goes") whether you are claiming (A) that Mark 9:43 and Matthew 10:28 have nothing to do with the concept of hell, or (B) that they were penned "centuries after Jesus' death, for the purposes of fear mongering".

 

[GreenKepi]

Jesus Himself stated that God destroys 'souls'. God is the consuming fire. The Second Death is when the soul is destroyed. Matthew 10:28 - "And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. I can picture God with tears in His eyes when saying, "How can my children think that I'd be so cruel to punish the unsaved forever and ever with no chance of escape or release". And...how terrible...God did not see fit to warn people of hell in the Old Testament. If you'd ask one of the 'old-timers' of those days about a place called hell...they'd have looked at you and said..."What in the world are you talking about"?!....

 

[Neo Deist]

Then tell us ('as far as history goes") whether you are claiming (A) that Mark 9:43 and Matthew 10:28 have nothing to do with the concept of hell, or (B) that they were penned "centuries after Jesus' death, for the purposes of fear mongering".

A few things...

1. The Gospel authors are anonymous. That makes everything they contain 3rd party hearsay. Since they quote Jesus, yet were not eyewitnesses, it should be understood that what is written is most likely not 100% accurate. We, in the LEO community, run into this in court all the time.

2. English was not a language at the time of Jesus. Everywhere that he says "hell" in English should be read as Gehenna (Koine Greek). Gehenna is the lake of fire, symbolic of the Valley of Gehinnom. It was understood by that culture as a place of burning. It says nothing of eternal torment, as fire consumes/destroys.

3. The 1611 KJV is the culprit behind lumping sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna into a singular meaning: hell. This is erroneous.

4. Jesus often spoke/taught using parables, and what he said was not meant to be taken literally. You have to understand the underlying message.

5. The Gospels were penned years, and in some cases, decades after Jesus' death.

6. The imagery of HELL as a place of hell, fire, brimstone, torment, torture, blah blah blah came about centuries later. The RCC was the big instigator behind this concept. It used fear and guilt trips to push its agenda. That same fear mongering and guilt tripping allowed it to maintain power and influence. "Take up this crusade in the name of God, and you may be forgiven for your sins!"

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A few things...

1. The Gospel authors are anonymous. ...

2. English was not a language at the time of Jesus. Everywhere that he says "hell" in English should be read as Gehenna (Koine Greek). Gehenna is the lake of fire, symbolic of the Valley of Gehinnom. It was understood by that culture as a place of burning. It says nothing of eternal torment, as fire consumes/destroys.

3. The 1611 KJV is the culprit behind lumping sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna into a singular meaning: hell. This is erroneous.

4. Jesus often spoke/taught using parables, and what he said was not meant to be taken literally. You have to understand the underlying message.

5. The Gospels were penned years, and in some cases, decades after Jesus' death.

6. The imagery of HELL as a place of hell, fire, brimstone, torment, torture, blah blah blah came about centuries later. The RCC was the big instigator behind this concept. It used fear and guilt trips to push its agenda. That same fear mongering and guilt tripping allowed it to maintain power and influence. "Take up this crusade in the name of God, and you may be forgiven for your sins!"

What disingenuous drivel. Off to the ignore list ...

 

[Neo Deist]

What disingenuous drivel. Off to the ignore list ...

No longer going to be responding to my posts? There is a God!!!

 

[Neo Deist]

What disingenuous drivel. Off to the ignore list ...

1. The Gospel authors are anonymous.

FACT. You can go to any modern English NT and see where it states this. This is the consensus among most theological scholars.

2. English was not a language at the time of Jesus. Everywhere that he says "hell" in English should be read as Gehenna (Koine Greek). Gehenna is the lake of fire, symbolic of the Valley of Gehinnom. It was understood by that culture as a place of burning. It says nothing of eternal torment, as fire consumes/destroys.

FACT. The English language did not come about until centuries after Jesus' death.

3. The 1611 KJV is the culprit behind lumping sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna into a singular meaning: hell. This is erroneous.

FACT. Nothing else to say.

4. Jesus often spoke/taught using parables, and what he said was not meant to be taken literally. You have to understand the underlying message.

FACT. Everyone knows this.

5. The Gospels were penned years, and in some cases, decades after Jesus' death.

FACT. Look it up for yourself.

6. The imagery of HELL as a place of hell, fire, brimstone, torment, torture, blah blah blah came about centuries later. The RCC was the big instigator behind this concept. It used fear and guilt trips to push its agenda. That same fear mongering and guilt tripping allowed it to maintain power and influence. "Take up this crusade in the name of God, and you may be forgiven for your sins!"

Personal, rational opinion based on historical facts.

 

[wizanda]

Everywhere that he says "hell" in English should be read as Gehenna (Koine Greek).

Not everywhere, there are a few references to Hades as well....The fire references are about Gehenna, the Hades ones about Sheol.

 

[Neo Deist]

Not everywhere, there are a few references to Hades as well....The fire references are about Gehenna, the Hades ones about Sheol.

You are right!

I was referring to the cases of Gehenna as hell...the place of eternal torment.

 

[Neo Deist]

So, because, you cannot tell the ''Hells' apart, in Scripture, that means that Hell does not exist in Scripture? The word Hell was used for a few different Hell ideas, one was Gehinna, which is the lake of fire. It is called the the lake of fire in the Text, so therefore, many people /adhering to the text/, can easily understand which ''Hell' is being referred to. The ''details'' of the Hell/s/ is the only thing in question. None of them are ''physical''. Gehenna, (the physical place), is either sharing the name by coincidence, or was named after the 'real' Gehenna, ie spiritual place. The Scripture makes this clear, but one has to have an understanding of the religious concepts, in order to know what one is reading //in the Text, ie the meaning.

 

[Desert Snake]

?
Remain incorrect, that's your prerogative.

 

[David1967]

How would you recognize one?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but in answer to your question I would look at the reply and research it to see what I could find. Thats really all any of us could do.

 

[David1967]

No longer going to be responding to my posts? There is a God!!!

How funny