Why learn about other faiths?

[Dragonslayer]

Does he tell you he doesn't benefit from the Koran? (Maybe he is struggling with his faith in God and muhammad without regards to his father's edicts?)

Did he decide not to be muslim; is he christian?

If he is not teaching your truth as His Truth too when he doesn't share that belief can do more harm than good.

Would you help someone say a Pagan who Does follow the their faith but instead of teaching him Your faith you (1) ask about his and (2) help him with his?

For example, I wasn't Catholic for most my life. I was going to date one lady but she told me she was Christian and she had inner discomfort. At the time the only thing Catholic I knew was from my other friend. Instead of telling her My Truth, I asked her about Her faith and she may feel comfortable talking to Her god. I dont know if she stopped dating but if she stopped because she listened to her faith that's good. I would never think someone can learn Truth from me when its not theirs.

You have to help them with their truth. It's not for you to define truth for them. Are you able to help them with their truth or only yours?

Can you display empathy and compassion by setting aside your need and faith by helping people with theirs?

Which is more benefitial to someone, helping them with their faith or with yours?

I know your faith. My question is asking you. Sharing details of your faith is not answering question.

The problem is, you don't believe the truth exists. You believe there are thousands of truths, all equally true and I'm saying there is only one truth.

So we need to establish if you believe there is only one truth or not. If you say there are many truths then I will know that you are lost and confused, because if you have two opposite views they can't both be right.

If I say the earth is flat and another person says it's a round globe, but you say we are both right than you are wrong because we can't both be right. One of us is wrong and the other is right, so I'm trying to establish if you believe the truth exists or not. If not than as far as your concerned every-bodies truth is equally valid and all worth the same.

So Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa are equally good, and there is n o right or wrong and people can rape and kill children and it's all equally good as feeding the poor.

I need to establish what you base your world view on, because I can't answer your question until I find out if you believe that the truth exists or not. If you believe the truth exists then the person who has the truth can share it with those who are lost in false religions right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The problem is, you don't believe the truth exists. You believe there are thousands of truths, all equally true and I'm saying there is only one truth.

So we need to establish if you believe there is only one truth or not. If you say there are many truths then I will know that you are lost and confused, because if you have two opposite views they can't both be right.

If I say the earth is flat and another person says it's a round globe, but you say we are both right than you are wrong because we can't both be right. One of us is wrong and the other is right, so I'm trying to establish if you believe the truth exists or not. If not than as far as your concerned every-bodies truth is equally valid and all worth the same.

So Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa are equally good, and there is n o right or wrong and people can rape and kill children and it's all equally good as feeding the poor.

I need to establish what you base your world view on, because I can't answer your question until I find out if you believe that the truth exists or not. If you believe the truth exists then the person who has the truth can share it with those who are lost in false religions right?

I read it.

The question has nothing to do with me. My spirituality has nothing to do with whether you decide to help others based on their beliefs or yours.

I am not Hindu, but if I knew Hinduism, I can suggest advice from a Hindu point of view (the best I can). I am not Pagan, but if Im familiar with any of the religions, I will do the same. I am not Muslim, but Ive helped Muslims before. I dont practice Catholicism, but I do help Catholics from time to time.

Has nothing to do with me.

I do not need to believe in your truth to ask if you help others and how.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will pray for you my dear friend, I am convinced that you have it wrong. Jesus told us that many would come after Him, claiming to have new revelation from God but He warned us not to listen to these people.

Jesus said if anyone comes along and teaches anything other than the Gospel which He taught, let them be cursed and pay no attention to them. So with all due respect, I must rebuke your guru and everything he stands for. I reject everything that he has to say as lies, Christ said "let every man be a liar and let God be true".

You are free to rebuke whoever you want to because you have free will just like everyone else. However, regarding the return of Christ, biblically you do not have a leg to stand on.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

That is true. There have been many false christs. However, logically speaking, that does not mean that everyone who claimed to be the return of Christ was false. Jesus also said we should be watching because “the Lord doth come.”

Matthew 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

Note that Jesus says “for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” and not “for ye know not what hour I doth come.” Jesus said “the Son of man cometh” but Jesus never said “I cometh.”

Son of man is a title. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented. However, the title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus.

Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds, but He was not referring to Himself and He was not referring to the physical clouds in the sky. He was referring to clouds as a symbol for things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men, things that will cloud their judgment and veil them from the Truth when the Christ Spirit returns.

Jesus was the Christ. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Spirit of Christ. Jesus was the Son of man. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man. Jesus said we would see the Son of man. Jesus never said you would see me.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
​

Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” Not once in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return to earth. There is not one verse. That is because Jesus never planned to return to earth.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
​

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This shows that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this earth world or that Jesus will ever come to earth and rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. Jesus did these things so there is no more reason for Jesus to return to earth. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

When Jesus referred to the Son of man, Jesus was referring to another Person, another Comforter, also known as the Spirit of truth. Jesus never promised that He would return in the same body. He promised to send His Spirit, the Christ Spirit:

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said he would do in John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:8-11,13,14. The Holy Spirit living inside of Christians could not do what it says in these verses. Only a man could do these things. I can prove Baha’u’llah did these things but I do not want to get into that now since that will make this post too long.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.​

In the Old Testament it says that nothing can be added to it, but the New Testament is a New Testament, so surely it was an addition to God’s Word.

Jesus did not say “if anyone comes along and teaches anything other than the Gospel which He taught, let them be cursed and pay no attention to them.” Paul said that.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.​

However, it is still valid because there is only one gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ. That means if anyone tried to preach another gospel they would be a liar and a fraud; accursed.

The Baha’i Faith is not “another gospel.” It is a new revelation from God, just as the New Testament was a new revelation from God that superseded the Old Testament that came from Moses and the prophets of old.

Nobody should ever add to the Word of God once it has been recorded. However, that does not mean that God can never speak again in the future. We know God can speak again because God spoke again after Moses. Just as Christians believe the New Testament is the final word of God, Jews believe the Torah is the final word of God, but we know that Jesus is the Word of God so we know the Jews are wrong.

“And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21​

 

[Dragonslayer]

I read it.

The question has nothing to do with me. My spirituality has nothing to do with whether you decide to help others based on their beliefs or yours.

I am not Hindu, but if I knew Hinduism, I can suggest advice from a Hindu point of view (the best I can). I am not Pagan, but if Im familiar with any of the religions, I will do the same. I am not Muslim, but Ive helped Muslims before. I dont practice Catholicism, but I do help Catholics from time to time.

Has nothing to do with me.

I do not need to believe in your truth to ask if you help others and how.

OK, then I would ask what you mean by "help others" we believe the best way to help anyone is to share the truth with them. We are not trying to appeal to peoples desire to be accepted or confirmed in their lifestyle, we are all about sharing the truth with everyone and by doing that we are sharing the greatest gift anyone can give.

People who visit our Church often walk out because they are shocked to hear the truth. Most people hate the truth, they don't want to hear it because it's highly offensive to their sinful lifestyle. We have had homosexuals visit our Church and walk out half way through the sermon, because they head that god hates people who live sinful lives.

We are not about accommodating people in their fallen sinful state and confirming them and affirming and giving them our blessing or accepting them as they are. We preach that everyone is born in a fallen sinful state and unless they are born again they will be cast into hell when this life ends.

Most people seek acceptance, they want someone to tell them that they are good people. They like to hear that they are good people who have made mistakes because of the way they were raised and the influence of their friends and family. They don't want to hear that they are responsible for every single sin they have ever committed. Our Church teaches that we all need to be saved from our sin, and that we have no power to save our self so we need Christ to save us.

We speak the truth and find that most people hate us for it, they want to hear a different message. They want us to embrace everyone and affirm them in whatever sinful lifestyle they live.

So I'm not going to encourage people who are in false religions to seek answers in the teaching of their false religion, I point them to the truth which applies to all of mankind. The truth is not a religion, it's a person and His name is Jesus the Christ who is the true God and creator of the universe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There are many Truths, not just one. Each Truth including yours work for you (all individually) and for no one else.

Once you put your Truth on others, that is borderline replaying history when christians killed pagans for their disbelief. Dont reinvent the wheel. Calling it "sharing" doesnt get you off the hook.

OK, then I would ask what you mean by "help others" we believe the best way to help anyone is to share the truth with them. We are not trying to appeal to peoples desire to be accepted or confirmed in their lifestyle, we are all about sharing the truth with everyone and by doing that we are sharing the greatest gift anyone can give.

Empathy means stepping into someone elses shoes to help them and feel what they go through in order to address them as a friend. It does not mean compensating your belief. Empathy is not compensation but humlness and thinking of others and not yourself.

Helping others is displaying empathy. For example, if a Pagan just lost their mother and do not believe in heaven nor hell, it would not make sense for you to share with them heaven and hell when that teaching does not help them only you. Its a delusion that you are helping this person because it is only from your point of view not theirs.

Empathy doesnt work that way. Im severely empathetic and surprised when you (all) some cant express it in light of your own worldviews and religion.

No one needs to accept your Truth only their Truth and no one else's.

People who visit our Church often walk out because they are shocked to hear the truth. Most people hate the truth, they don't want to hear it because it's highly offensive to their sinful lifestyle. We have had homosexuals visit our Church and walk out half way through the sermon, because they head that god hates people who live sinful lives.

This is off topic. If you cannot welcome sinners, why follow christ who died for your sin just as theirs. Are you judging their salvation on their sin but not on yours? Are you perfect???? I dont remember jesus dying for perfection.

We are not about accommodating people in their fallen sinful state and confirming them and affirming and giving them our blessing or accepting them as they are. We preach that everyone is born in a fallen sinful state and unless they are born again they will be cast into hell when this life ends.

You totally miss my point. Helping others does not mean you compensate or accommendate for others. The nature of helping is thinking of another persons wellbeing and not your own.

You cannot help people unless you are empathetic to their wellbeing. They know what is best for them not your god.

Most people seek acceptance, they want someone to tell them that they are good people. They like to hear that they are good people who have made mistakes because of the way they were raised and the influence of their friends and family. They don't want to hear that they are responsible for every single sin they have ever committed. Our Church teaches that we all need to be saved from our sin, and that we have no power to save our self so we need Christ to save us.

Who is most people? Billions of people are christian. The rest of us are thrown away like trash as if not believing in christ as if it is the worst thing any non-christian can do in life.

But, well, your sharing does not bring people to christ unless they are coerced or you bring them to it by proselytizing of some sort.

We speak the truth and find that most people hate us for it, they want to hear a different message. They want us to embrace everyone and affirm them in whatever sinful lifestyle they live.

You speak opinion. You can call it Truth. It doesnt matter. Sinful lifestyle is besides the point. Many of us dont define people by their sin. Many christians define sinners who are born again as children of god. As children of god, their god teaches them a better lifestyle.

Only god helps and shows them salvation a life long lifetyle.

You have nothing to do with it; you arent god so dont judge anothers salvation based on what they do. You dont kow them. Youre not god.

So I'm not going to encourage people who are in false religions to seek answers in the teaching of their false religion, I point them to the truth which applies to all of mankind. The truth is not a religion, it's a person and His name is Jesus the Christ who is the true God and creator of the universe.

THANK YOU! For answering my question

It is sad, though. I listen to people who talk like you a lot, well, I used to. The more they talked, the more I thought: I would never be a part of your faith. It is like joining a Clan and marching around pushing people to believe what we do.

I heard proselytizing before on RF, but you take the cake.

I hope you can help people and think of them sometime. One day. Maybe the next life time you will. Progress in action. Dharma always supersedes negativity.

 

[Dragonslayer]

You are free to rebuke whoever you want to because you have free will just like everyone else. However, regarding the return of Christ, biblically you do not have a leg to stand on.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

That is true. There have been many false christs. However, logically speaking, that does not mean that everyone who claimed to be the return of Christ was false. Jesus also said we should be watching because “the Lord doth come.”

Matthew 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

Note that Jesus says “for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come” and not “for ye know not what hour I doth come.” Jesus said “the Son of man cometh” but Jesus never said “I cometh.”

Son of man is a title. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented. However, the title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus.

Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds, but He was not referring to Himself and He was not referring to the physical clouds in the sky. He was referring to clouds as a symbol for things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men, things that will cloud their judgment and veil them from the Truth when the Christ Spirit returns.

Jesus was the Christ. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Spirit of Christ. Jesus was the Son of man. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man. Jesus said we would see the Son of man. Jesus never said you would see me.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
​

Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” Not once in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return to earth. There is not one verse. That is because Jesus never planned to return to earth.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
​

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This shows that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
​

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this earth world or that Jesus will ever come to earth and rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. Jesus did these things so there is no more reason for Jesus to return to earth. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

When Jesus referred to the Son of man, Jesus was referring to another Person, another Comforter, also known as the Spirit of truth. Jesus never promised that He would return in the same body. He promised to send His Spirit, the Christ Spirit:

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said he would do in John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:8-11,13,14. The Holy Spirit living inside of Christians could not do what it says in these verses. Only a man could do these things. I can prove Baha’u’llah did these things but I do not want to get into that now since that will make this post too long.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.​

In the Old Testament it says that nothing can be added to it, but the New Testament is a New Testament, so surely it was an addition to God’s Word.

There are something like 40,000 "Christian" Sects, Denominations, Cults, Religions and organisations. They all claim to posses the correct interpretation of scripture but most contradict each other and they are not in agreement.

The Bible teaches that only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them will be able to rightly discern the scriptures and many others will claim to posses the truth but they are in error.

I'm not saying that you are mistaken with your interpretation, but I would be very careful before I settle on a particular view. I changed my view several times, before I finally settled the matter. We will continue to learn about God as we live, there is just too much to know about the Holy Scriptures so we can't sum them up because Gods Word is alive and it's too big to grasp and digest in our minds.

Our main focus should be our personal walk with the Lord, we need to be in prayer and always checking our standing before the Lord to make sure we are doing His will at all times. Discerning prophecy is not our greatest priority, it is important but our current obligations before the Lord are more important.

I'm not going to enter into a debate about Bible prophecy, because it's a very deep topic. I would rather deal with the fundamental issues at hand, such as who Christ is and deal with one thing at a time. We go off into many different directions when we try to tackle too many issues at a time.

I refereed to Christ's warning about false prophets coming after Him and claiming to have new prophecy from God. I believe that there is no new prophecy and God finished speaking to mankind with the revelation of Jesus Christ when He spoke to John on the isle of Patmos. Christ told John to write down the revelation and that completed the canon of scripture.

So we believe that God completed the canon of scripture with the book of revelation and he hasn't spoken to us since then. We also believe that Christ warning about false prophets was a direct and literal warning to ignore anyone who comes along with any new revelation from God as false prophets.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

OK, then I would ask what you mean by "help others" we believe the best way to help anyone is to share the truth with them. We are not trying to appeal to peoples desire to be accepted or confirmed in their lifestyle, we are all about sharing the truth with everyone and by doing that we are sharing the greatest gift anyone can give.

People who visit our Church often walk out because they are shocked to hear the truth. Most people hate the truth, they don't want to hear it because it's highly offensive to their sinful lifestyle. We have had homosexuals visit our Church and walk out half way through the sermon, because they head that god hates people who live sinful lives.

We are not about accommodating people in their fallen sinful state and confirming them and affirming and giving them our blessing or accepting them as they are. We preach that everyone is born in a fallen sinful state and unless they are born again they will be cast into hell when this life ends.

Most people seek acceptance, they want someone to tell them that they are good people. They like to hear that they are good people who have made mistakes because of the way they were raised and the influence of their friends and family. They don't want to hear that they are responsible for every single sin they have ever committed. Our Church teaches that we all need to be saved from our sin, and that we have no power to save our self so we need Christ to save us.

We speak the truth and find that most people hate us for it, they want to hear a different message. They want us to embrace everyone and affirm them in whatever sinful lifestyle they live.

So I'm not going to encourage people who are in false religions to seek answers in the teaching of their false religion, I point them to the truth which applies to all of mankind. The truth is not a religion, it's a person and His name is Jesus the Christ who is the true God and creator of the universe.

Ima shift this a bit because your Truth is not my Truth; and, discussions do not need both parties to believe in each other's Truths to make a point.

We both have our individual Truths. For me, The Truth is based on my values and experiences not on an outside source. Take creativity. Creativity means to me freedom and uniqueness. It means a way of moving through the world of varies perspectives that One Truth cannot accomonate. Its a polyistic way of viewing the world without a god but many gods/many truths/many ways to revere life/many lives and traditions; more than one.

This is My Truth. It has nothing to do with you.

Your Truth is jesus christ. It is something you believe or hold with conviction. All your posts is evidence to what you hold as true. Sometimes we mistake our Truths as facts.

It is a fact that the earth spins. It is not a fact that god exists. We can check the skies and see the sun rise and fall to know the earth turns. We cannot do any observation to know god exists. It is based on one persons Truth or what they hold as true/their belief and conviction. That evidence is not objective like the earth turning but subjective based on your experiences and your views and your interpretations.

God is not a fact but he is your Truth and no one elses. While you can say otherwise, that doesnt exclude the fact everyone has their own beliefs and the fact that proof god exists is not something based on facts but assumptions and beliefs and opinions as well as bias.

Until you show how Christ is a fact, your Truth does not mean anything to those who do not share your views. As soon as you understand this, you would have more empathy in understanding other person worldviews without critizing them as false.

How does your view of peoples false faith helpful to your spiritual wellbeing?

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm not going to enter into a debate about Bible prophecy

In one thread I got the Baha'is to give me their interpretation of the Book of Revelation. I wish you would have been there... to debate them over it. They had things like the Lamb of God is not Jesus, but their forerunner to their prophet, the Bab. They had the two witnesses being Muhammad and Ali. So the good guys were from Islam, but then the bad guys from Revelation were also. They have the Umayyads and the Abbasids of Islam being the beast and dragon. In fact the first leader of the Umayyads supposedly took power in and around 666AD, so they make him the one talked about with the "number" of the beast.

They did have one thing that is absolutely amazing. They take the start of Islam and add 1260 years to it and come up with the year The Bab declared he was the forerunner to the prophet. For me, they blow it by making every reference that they can that in some way adds up to 1260 years, 3 1/2 days, 42 months and a couple of 1260 day... also as a reference to the same thing. The problem is that all these refer to different things that started before or after each other. They all could not have started in the same year. But they make them all start in the year anyway. That way they can end up at the right year,1844.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are something like 40,000 "Christian" Sects, Denominations, Cults, Religions and organisations. They all claim to posses the correct interpretation of scripture but most contradict each other and they are not in agreement.

That is true, so who is to say which one is right? They all think they are right but they cannot all be right since they contradict each other.

The Bible teaches that only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them will be able to rightly discern the scriptures and many others will claim to posses the truth but they are in error.

But all Christians say they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. Who knows if the Holy Spirit is indwelling in them or not? How can you prove that?

Our main focus should be our personal walk with the Lord, we need to be in prayer and always checking our standing before the Lord to make sure we are doing His will at all times. Discerning prophecy is not our greatest priority, it is important but our current obligations before the Lord are more important.

I can agree with that.

So we believe that God completed the canon of scripture with the book of revelation and he hasn't spoken to us since then.

I know Christians believe that. Jews also believe that there was last prophet. Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet. Everyone has different beliefs but they contradict so they cannot all be true.

We also believe that Christ warning about false prophets was a direct and literal warning to ignore anyone who comes along with any new revelation from God as false prophets.

I do not recall any verses that say that anyone who comes along with any new revelation from God are false prophets. I do recall these verses, which indicate that there are false prophets and true prophets.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

 

[Aupmanyav]

'So Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa are equally good, .. I need to establish what you base your world view on, because I can't answer your question until I find out if you believe that the truth exists or not. If you believe the truth exists then the person who has the truth can share it with those who are lost in false religions right?'

Good or bad are relative terms. Jesus, Buddha, Kublai, Genghis, Timur, Mohammad, Hitler, Teresa, Pol Pot, Osama, Stalin, Al-Baghdadi, you and me. What constitutes all these is the same.

 

[Marcion]

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

It is tricky to just quote from the New Testament as if you are quoting a person called Matthew or even Jesus.
The author of Matthew will typically mix the sayings which he found in Q-lite and add his own stuff, his own thoughts and projections in between.

So in this case the saying of Jesus is thus:

Q 6: 43-45 / Luke 6: 43-45 = Matthew 7: 15-16b; 18-19, 12: 33-35

43 .. No healthy tree bears rotten fruit, nor does a decayed tree bear healthy fruit. 44 For from the fruit the tree is known. Are figs picked from thorns, or grapes from thistles? 45 The good person from his good treasure casts up good things, and the evil person from the evil treasure casts up evil things. For from exuberance of heart one’s mouth speaks.

And to this the author of Matthew added (or you could say he added the Q-lite saying to his own saying):

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

So this idea about so-called "false prophets" was purely made up by the author of Matthew and he dares to put this idea into the mouth of the speaking Jesus eventhough Jesus never said this. Of course this type of manipulation is not unique to Christianity, you can e.g. find it also in many Hindu scriptures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not sure which god your referring to, I'm referring to the only true God Jehovah. We have 66 books describing Him as having the image of a Man, you might be referring to Zeus or some other god.

I am a Jew, and the Jewish God has a Hebrew written name spelled with a yad hey and vav hey. The correct way to pronounce this has been lost over the millennia. Many mispronounce it as J*hovah (there is no J in Hebrew), so I would say tht you and i are talking about the same God. He does not have a male body with sexual organs. He has no form at all. We refer to him as Avinu (our father) out of convenience.

There is no book in the Tanakh stating that He has the body of a man. There is a verse in Genesis that says we ar made i the imag of God, meaning tht we have hiws charactr traits such as free will and moral sentience. The Tanakh also uses anthropomorphisms -- a form of figurative speech in a whicch something non-human is spoken of inn human terms. For example, we speak of "th face of God" in a figurative sense, since in reaqlity he has no face.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well speaking of learning from other faiths... Christians, Moslems and now Baha'is say they all evolved out of Judaism. With Protestant Christianity we get a strong emphasis on Satan, hell, and that Adam and Eve sinned to create a need for Jesus to come "save" humanity. In any sect of Judaism, that you know of, were any of these things a major belief?

For the Baha'is and Islam, my questions is about Isaac and Ishmael. They both say that it was Ishmael, not Isaac, that Abraham took to get sacrificed. Baha'is here have said that a scribe could have made this change. I don't see how, since wouldn't there be several Scrolls and several scribes making new copies? If it wasn't all of them working together to make the change, how could one get away with such change? But then, when a rabbi reads from the new Scroll, it seems like he'd question that change... or, he'd have to be in on it too, along with all the rabbis. And, if it was originally Ishmael, how does the rest of Isaacs story in the Bible make sense? This is not a small issue, because it makes both the Baha'is and Moslems liars... Or, it makes Jews and Christians liars?

Look, I don't want to totally dis Baha'i and Islam, because think one can be a part of both of those religions and grow closer to God and learn to walk in his ways. But I do have a bone to pick about the Ishmael thing. ""two religions are much more recent. They basically came along LATER, changed things, and then have the audacity to say, "We're right and you are wrong." If any version of the story has more authenticity, it's going to be the earlier version, the Isaac version. That only makes scholarly sense. But whatever. So long as they treat others well, I don't want to make a big fuss.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is tricky to just quote from the New Testament as if you are quoting a person called Matthew or even Jesus.
The author of Matthew will typically mix the sayings which he found in Q-lite and add his own stuff, his own thoughts and projections in between.

So in this case the saying of Jesus is thus:

Q 6: 43-45 / Luke 6: 43-45 = Matthew 7: 15-16b; 18-19, 12: 33-35

What is Q-lite?

I know what the Q document hypothesis is, but assuming that "Q" existed, we no longer have it, so you couldn't be refering that Q with your "Q 6:43-45."

 

[Dragonslayer]

I am a Jew, and the Jewish God has a Hebrew written name spelled with a yad hey and vav hey. The correct way to pronounce this has been lost over the millennia. Many mispronounce it as J*hovah (there is no J in Hebrew), so I would say tht you and i are talking about the same God. He does not have a male body with sexual organs. He has no form at all. We refer to him as Avinu (our father) out of convenience.

There is no book in the Tanakh stating that He has the body of a man. There is a verse in Genesis that says we ar made i the imag of God, meaning tht we have hiws charactr traits such as free will and moral sentience. The Tanakh also uses anthropomorphisms -- a form of figurative speech in a whicch something non-human is spoken of inn human terms. For example, we speak of "th face of God" in a figurative sense, since in reaqlity he has no face.

Christians and Jews believe in the same one true God, but we believe God exists as One in three Persons. This is hard to grasp but it is true, God the Father and God the Son and god the Holy Spirit have always existed as the triune Godhead and will continue to exist into all eternity.

Everything else was created, but God was never created, we don't know what god the father looks like but God came into the World in the person Of Jesus Christ who is equally God in every respect just as the Father and Holy Spirit are. Each is equally God, they are One Godhead existing in Three Persons. I know this is a hard concept to grasp but it's the undeniable Biblical Truth.

Jesus Christ said "I am the truth" that statement is very powerful, He is the only One who claimed to be the actual "Truth", most people think the truth is a thing but it's actually a person and it's Jesus Christ Himself. So we either believe in Him or we reject Him, there is no neutral position when it comes to Christ. He demands nothing less than absolute submission to His will, He claimed to be God. He claimed to have created everything that exists.

I know that God has placed a condition on the Jewish people, where by you will not believe in Christ until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. When the last elect Gentile is saved, then the veil will be lifted and the Jewish people will finnaly join Gods One and only true living Church. You will be added to Gods elect as the last, because you were chosen to be the first but you rebelled against God and served other false gods so God placed a veil over your eyes until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

The good news is, we will all be saved. God has elected Jews and Gentiles to inherit His Kingdom and every single person who's name was written in the book of life before the world was made will be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God. So we should all rejoice together and praise God for the love and mercy He has extended to all of His elect, Jew and gentile alike.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christians and Jews believe in the same one true God, but we believe God exists as One in three Persons. This is hard to grasp but it is true, God the Father and God the Son and god the Holy Spirit have always existed as the triune Godhead and will continue to exist into all eternity.

The fact that Christians worship Jesus as God is the most alarming thing about your theology for us Jews. Historically it was around the time of Nicea, when Trinitarianism was ironed out and Jesus was officially declared God as dogma, that Jews began to be accused and punished for "Deicide" (God murderers). It was in this age that you had the rise of the Great Anti-Semite Chrysostom and the proliferation of the charge of Christ-Killer levied against all Jews. It has therefore been a topic of extreme interest to me, and i have read several book of both history and theology about the matter trying to figure what the heck is going on. I would say I have as good an understanding of Trinitarianism as anyone CAN have, but it just butts up against my Jewish sense that God is ECHAD, a pure uncompromised oneness.

BTW, Triniatiranism is extremely similar to what they have in Hinduism as well.

know that God has placed a condition on the Jewish people, where by you will not believe in Christ until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Ah yes. The old "Jewish eyes are veiled by God to the truth." You have no idea how insulting that is, how patronizing it is, to removing our moral freedom and responsibility. But I understand your motivation. It really gets your goat that you inherited a Jewish framework, a Jewish "messiah", Jewish apostles, Jewish sacred texts, and worship the God of the Jews, who set Jews apart as a priestly people, and those very people consider your religious faith completely irrelevant. You are kind of forced out of desperation to come up with an explanation, no matter how far fetched. And at any rate, it kind of gives us a get out of hell free card, since it's supposedly God himself who is at fault for our failure to pass the Jesus test.

When the last elect Gentile is saved, then the veil will be lifted and the Jewish people will finnaly join Gods One and only true living Church. You will be added to Gods elect as the last, because you were chosen to be the first but you rebelled against God and served other false gods so God placed a veil over your eyes until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Excuse me but I don't worship a false god. I don't worship Baal or Zeus or mother earth. I worship the God of my fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Did Abraham worship a false God?

The good news is, we will all be saved..

That's not the Christianity I know of. The Christianity I'm familiar with says some will be thrown into the lake of fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. IOW, some go to heaven, and some go to hell. And as much as I don't care for the idea of eternal torment (in Judaism hell is temporary) neither can I match up the idea of a just God and just letting Hitler off Scot free to frolic in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

If any version of the story has more authenticity, it's going to be the earlier version, the Isaac version. That only makes scholarly sense.

It does not make any sense to me that the earlier version is more authentic, not unless you have Original Writings of the Prophets that are authentic and can be verified as authentic. The only Original Writings we have from any Prophet/Messenger of God is what the Bab and Baha'u'llah wrote.

But even if you had authentic scriptures, it makes no sense to me that God stopped speaking to humanity after the Torah was written. That means that the New Testament and the Qur'an have to be completely disregarded as the Word of God, let alone disregarding the Writings of Baha'u'llah. That is why Judaism makes absolutely no sense to me.

All Jews and all Christians think they know what their scriptures mean but Jews do not agree what their scriptures mean and Christians do not agree what their scriptures mean. That alone tells is there is a big problem. It tells us nobody really ever knew what God intended to convey. Although there may well be one or more correct meanings, how can you know which ones those are? Why would some people have it right and the other have it wrong? There is no authority to refer back to now and verify who is right.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It does not make any sense to me that the earlier version is more authentic, not unless you have Original Writings of the Prophets that are authentic and can be verified as authentic. The only Original Writings we have from any Prophet/Messenger of God is what the Bab and Baha'u'llah wrote.

But even if you had authentic scriptures, it makes no sense to me that God stopped speaking to humanity after the Torah was written. That means that the New Testament and the Qur'an have to be completely disregarded as the Word of God, let alone disregarding the Writings of Baha'u'llah. That is why Judaism makes absolutely no sense to me.

All Jews and all Christians think they know what their scriptures mean but Jews do not agree what their scriptures mean and Christians do not agree what their scriptures mean. That alone tells is there is a big problem. It tells us nobody really ever knew what God intended to convey. Although there may well be one or more correct meanings, how can you know which ones those are? Why would some people have it right and the other have it wrong? There is no authority to refer back to now and verify who is right.

Stories change with time. The more tellings, the greater the variation will be. A story closer in time to the original will be more true to the original than a story farther out in time. This is basic scholarship.

My assumption here is that a heavenly voice didn't come booming out of a cloud or zap the brain of a prophet. The story was passed down orally FROM THE TIME OF ABRAHAM. There is room for legend to be added in during the oral stage, but the basics of the story most likely stayed true -- i.e. the promise passed through Isaac, not Ishmael. The oral story was later written up into text(s). These texts were edited together into books. The books came to be accepted as canon and were copied as closely as possible.

 

[Dawnofhope]

One of the big weaknesses of Religious Forums is the allowance of bubble chambers where other voices are not even allowed to be spoken.
In other news, who is really immune?

There seems to be tolerance for a wide range of perspectives here. What is that you would want discussed that you feel can not be?

Also, was not interested until god showed up on the job site and offered the title of prophet, and you can't do this stuff up close and personal without a stone - which is frowned upon in Western society - but without faith, I can't see it being an issue (in reply to the poll).

There are theists and atheists here and all sorts of variations. I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

Stories change with time. The more tellings, the greater the variation will be. A story closer in time to the original will be more true to the original than a story farther out in time. This is basic scholarship.

In that sense I can agree with you because it makes sense.

My assumption here is that a heavenly voice didn't come booming out of a cloud or zap the brain of a prophet. The story was passed down orally FROM THE TIME OF ABRAHAM. There is room for legend to be added in during the oral stage, but the basics of the story most likely stayed true -- i.e. the promise passed through Isaac, not Ishmael. The oral story was later written up into text(s). These texts were edited together into books. The books came to be accepted as canon and were copied as closely as possible.

Thanks for explaining that. I was never any religion before I became a Baha'i, never read one page of the Bible and did not know what the Torah was. I was raised in a nonreligious home and even after I became a Baha'i at age 17 I was not very interested in religion as a subject matter. Only during the last six years have I learned anything about Christianity and Judaism and other religions less so, by being on these forums. It is all fascinating but unfortunately I do not have time right now to read the Torah or the Bible. I could read them but I would not understand them so I do not see the point since I am a very thorough person. I need to have more time... I keep saying, after I retire. Meanwhile I pick up a lot by reading and discussing on forums.
According to authoritative Baha'i sources, the Torah is more authentic than the Bible, so I would be interested in reading it before I read the Bible. Besides, it is always best to start at the beginning of a story.

compiled by Research Department of the Universal House of Justice.

From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh:

The Four Gospels were written...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
The Bible​