1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is This Minority Group so Violent?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Based on theory and previous results, three hypotheses are posed:

    • Libertarian states have no violence between themselves.
    • The more libertarian two states, the less their mutual violence.
    • The more libertarian a state, the less its foreign violence.

    The direct and indirect tests given here provide strong, positive support for the three hypotheses and thereby for the Joint Freedom and Freedom Propositions, and thus reinforce the conclusion of my Understanding Conflict and War. A necessary condition of violence between two states is that at least one of them be partially or completely nonlibertarian. Or, to turn this around, violence does not occur between libertarian states. Moreover, whether states are considered individually or dyadically, the less free--libertarian--a state, the more violence it engages in.

    Contiguity is not an intervening variable: Contiguous or not, libertarian states do not exert violence on each other; and whether having common borders or not, the less freedom in states, the more violence between them.

    Whether libertarian is defined by political freedom or freedom, the data are highly supportive of the propositions. However, while economic freedom does not significantly detract from the Joint Freedom Proposition, it is clearly important for the Freedom one. To add economic freedom to civil liberties and political rights is to reduce significantly the level of violence for a state overall, or between particular states. For the Freedom Proposition, the libertarian's (or classical liberal's) faith in the peaceful effects of economic freedom appears" according to these data, well justified.
    LIBERTARIANISM AND INTERNATIONAL VIOLENCE
     
  2. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,409
    Ratings:
    +4,663
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    How would you define a "libertarian state"? Or more specifically, are there real world examples of such?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Without centralized and vicarious dispute resolution, I'd expect libertarian states to be hotbeds of competition and vendetta.
     
  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    152,873
    Ratings:
    +43,808
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    There's only one thing to say...
     
  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    24,069
    Ratings:
    +9,094
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Well when you oppress people, take away their freedoms, ban this ban that, create hideously restrictive nanny environments, people are going to get all pent-up and that has got to release sometime somewhere.

    There's something to said about people when anger is held in and pent up over a period of time.
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    57,108
    Ratings:
    +19,237
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Since when has the free market regulated itself and done away with conflicts?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    57,108
    Ratings:
    +19,237
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Overall, I'd say this article is a prime example of Libertarian naivety. They basically set the bar so high that there will never be a truly Libertarian state.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,409
    Ratings:
    +4,663
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I suppose an example might be some kind of old frontier region where the inhabitants might have followed some rules of civilized order, but without any real practical or timely enforcement mechanism.

    Or it could be something like the Hatfields and the McCoys, which would probably be how libertarian states would operate in practice.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    It is defined in the link provided. Basically each state considered is assigned a value based on political and economic freedom.
     
  10. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Sure, a judicial system which supports economic and political freedom.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    9,409
    Ratings:
    +4,663
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    I skimmed through it (it appears rather long), and I noticed a reference to Freedom House, whose measures of freedom I'm familiar with.

    Although they're claiming that they're looking as far back as 1816, whereas Freedom House started up in the 1930s or 40s, if I recall correctly.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    This is the initial theory, not a statement of fact. It takes a state with a freer market system and compares it to states with less free market systems.

    For example take the interaction of two "states" with freer market system such as the US and Canada. Then compare the interaction of two states with less free market systems such as Iran and Iraq.
     
    #12 Nakosis, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    They are not setting a bar they are setting a curve and placing existing "states/countries" on that curve. States which have freer market/political systems tend to have less violent interactions with each other.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,265
    Ratings:
    +5,136
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    What economic and political system were employed by the Hatfields/McCoys and how would each rate in terms of freedom?
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    The trick is to maintain the maximum freedom compatible with safety and prosperity. Without regulation society will stratify into a small, predatory elite exploiting a large, impoverished majority, and people will exploit resources for short-term benefit.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    I'm not familiar with the degree of economic freedom in the middle East, but it doesn't have a reputation for general prosperity, equality or stability. It doesn't compare favorably with the highly regulated, prosperous, happy Scandinavian regions.
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    But not necessarily less exploitative. Cutthroat, unregulated competition doesn't promote general prosperity within countries, and, internationally, free markets favor exploitation and imperialism.
     
  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    The region was isolated, unregulated and "free." With no reliable centralized authority to rely on. People settled their own affairs. There was fear, insecurity, vendetta and violent competition.
     
  19. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    24,069
    Ratings:
    +9,094
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    I don't disagree with that. It's clear there is a need for a proper balance between freedom and societal stability.

    It would be exceedingly nice to see a renaissance occur where that happy balance is met. Sadly , it's going to take a very skilled leader to accomplish that and I can't remember the last time this country had somebody like that.
     
  20. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    21,989
    Ratings:
    +9,687
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    "This country?" Aren't you American?
    Americans aren't supposed to have leaders, we're supposed to have representatives. We're supposed to govern ourselves.

    This craving for leaders strikes me as immaturity; a childlike need for a strong-father figure to take care of us. It leads to authoritarian, police states.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...