1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why is This Minority Group so Violent?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nakosis, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:07 PM.

  1. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    They are basically upfront saying "no True Libertarian state goes to war." That makes it rather convenient to dismiss any state that does go to war as non-Libertarian. Human behaviors and exchanges just aren't that simple.
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I also see "let someone else take care of my own responsibilities."
     
  3. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    11,994
    Ratings:
    +4,422
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    There is also the non-aggression principle.
    What you should know about the Non-Aggression Principle

    The fundamental axiom of libertarian theory is that no one may threaten or commit violence (“aggress”) against another man’s person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another.

    In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory.

    So war only in self defense. Otherwise you would be correct. However since there are no "true" libertarian states, the study looks at the libertarian principles of economic and political freedom.

    The implications being greater economic and political freedom resulting in less violence between states.
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Sounds like a Christian trying to dismiss the Crusaders, Inquisitors, and Conquistadors as "no real/true Christian."
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    11,994
    Ratings:
    +4,422
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    I would think the head of each family would be the centralized authority. Also likely a lot of political and economic pressure from the head of each family.

    Also libertarian does not equal unregulated. Libertarians recognize the need for regulation, based on their principles.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    11,994
    Ratings:
    +4,422
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    If you want to point to a "state" which has a system of economic and political freedom, past or present, we can review it.
     
  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    I don't see that claim being made.
    Libertarians believe in the right to self defense,
    which allows going to war for that purpose.
    But waging war out of belligerence isn't libertarian.
    So you're partly right.....if a state attacked another
    to steal resources, this would be non-libertarian.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Christians are defined by their accepting Jesus Christ as their lord & savior.
    So long as this is true for one, their behavior is independent of this.
    A murderous psychopath who is saved by Jesus is still a Christian,
    albeit a very bad one.

    To qualify as a libertarian state, it must have a large degree of both
    economic & social liberty. In this case, it is all about the behavior of
    the state with respect to these liberties.
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    11,994
    Ratings:
    +4,422
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    The libertarian position is the opposite of exploitation. In fact see the government as the exploitative. Big business controlling the government to the benefit of big business, not the free market. Again, libertarianism is not for un-regulation. It is for self regulation.

    I suppose you are in favor of Trump imposing tariffs on foreign countries? That's government regulation of the market. You want to government to tell you which products to buy, which not to buy, how much to buy? I suppose if you can't make these decision for yourself, you'd prefer the government to step in and make these decision for you. Governments allow monopolies, regulations allow exploitation. Big business is able to manipulate the government to say how you have to conduct business and who you can conduct it with. The protection people believe in through government regulation is illusionary.

    Freedom of choice is scary for some. They may feel safer by having the government make choices for them but that protection is not real.
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Its in the OP.
    And? That doesn't address how Christians will dismiss their less sabory members as "no real/true Christian. "
    .



     
  11. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    I saw.....

    • The more libertarian a state, the less its foreign violence.
    This is significantly different from your claim.
    Again, Christians aren't defined by their actions, but by their belief in Jesus as God.
    Libertarian states as addressed by the OP are defined by their actions, not by beliefs.
     
  12. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    20,827
    Ratings:
    +8,801
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    So your upstream neighbor raises pigs on one shore of the river and uses copious fertilizer, insecticides and herbicides on his cornfields on the other. You fish in that river, and your kids swim in it. As a libertarian, you support his freedom to use his land as he wants, but his freedom is negatively impacting you. With no coercive authority, what options do you have to resolve this?
     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    20,827
    Ratings:
    +8,801
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Ideally the government should be us -- the people. "The Government" should be a co-op, not an oligarchy of corporate special interests.
    Libertarian? Options include back to the Pleistocene and Somalia.

     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I'm not a Libertarian, but as Revoltingest would say, the upstream neighbor is swinging on the downstream neighbor's nose, which violates the "my rights end where you nose begins" thingy he says. And, indeed, many Libertarians do support a similar mindset, but it's also true that many don't.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Wags will say that libertarians oppose all regulation, but
    is this just a straw man? Perhaps they believe that libertarians
    are anarchists who oppose all regulation & even government.
    If that were so, we'd call ourselves "anarchists"

    Maximizing social & economic liberty means establishing boundaries
    such that crossing them begins to harm others. This is better than
    anarchy, wherein on has no redress of grievances except for personal
    action against the transgressor. We know that can turn violent.

    To such wags, I ask....
    Which libertarians oppose such useful environmental regulation?
    Name & quote them, & I'll address their claims.
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Why do you think Somalia is libertarian?
    You should become familiar with their constitution....
    Somali leaders back constitution
    That'll change your mind.

    I swear....anti-libertarians & their loopy straw men.
    If we aren't pouring used motor oil down our neighbor's
    wells, we're all praying around an Ayn Rand statue.
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Some libertarians are like that. "Ultra-minimal-state," "minarchist state," some such as Nozick believe the state should not even provide for defense, with the only role the government serving being to enforce ownership and contract agreements.
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Every group has its fringe elements.
    Tis erroneous to elevate them to the norm.
    But minarchy is long way from anarchy.
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    51,723
    Ratings:
    +16,816
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    How is that elevating them to the norm?
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    145,982
    Ratings:
    +40,314
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Our friend described libertarians in general as allowing upstream pollution.
    Tis a mistake to presume that we favor doing anything we want, so long
    as it's on our land. He ignores our awareness of the problem that water
    on that land travels downstream to our neighbor's nose...& gullet.
    Does any libertarian argue that pollution of neighbor's water is a right?

    Such extreme culling of fringe thought...unsupported, btw...could be
    used against others too.
    Do feminists generally believe that Newton's Principia is a "rape manual"?
    Do Democrats generally send pix of their junk to children?
     
    #40 Revoltingest, Jul 13, 2019 at 11:30 AM
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 12:13 PM
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...