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Why is the Trinity so controversial?

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
I don't understand how The Holy Trinity is so controversial...

And I don't see why it is taken to be polytheism either

It seems to make perfect sense to me:

trinityshield.png
It's a single entitiy made up of three separate parts

Just like a triangle is a single entity made out of three separate lines...

It says that God is a single entity which we may know as either a Father, the Holy Spirit, or as Jesus Christ

I know people find this confusing and call it polytheism but I don't really know why...

I'm not out to bicker or debate, I genuinely want to know :D

I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism
 
The accusation of Polytheism comes from ideas that The Father is not Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and that these are three different beings (which is the view of the Mormons, who still use the word "Godhead" but don't actually really mean it in the same way, and literally mean three separate individuals with separate minds).

The separate minds idea is enhanced by how The Son doesn't know what the Father Knows such as when the Day of Judgment will be, so why if they are one and the same being are they not knowing the same things and having the same one mind?

Furthermore, the question arises as to why the convoluted and confusing façade? Why does God get called Father, and is also called The Only Begotten Son, when in our experience in this world, the word Father and Son do not refer to one and the same person who is their own Son, in fact it sounds absurd and crazy to say someone's Father is their own Son as well, and was born through a Woman themselves. No one says such a thing generally, there is no precedent for such a notion at all, so this is why it sounds mad. A Father is not his own Son in any case other than this supposedly.

Also, a distinction is made between the Holy Spirit and the other two, even though they are all considered God, but if they are the same person, why aren't they simply considered the same and doing the same and knowing the same, and why are they called these confusing things like Father and Son of the Father and Spirit? It isn't as simple as "these are just three forms of One Being", since they are talking to each other, praying to each other, and it doesn't even really appear true entirely that the Son is the Father which is understood to be the main term for God overall.

So instead of this idea, which seemed to develop over time and did not really have much of an earlier precedent (it is not comparable to other Trinities), why not opt for something clearer, more simple, with precedent, easy to understand? Why should one take something as confusing as this:
God is Three Parts, called Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and these are One God, but also Three, and The Father is in Heaven while as Jesus God was on Earth, and God can be in two places at once, as well as anywhere and everywhere (but not in all people, as he was only in Jesus specifically or as Jesus specifically), anyway, Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God, born through the Virgin Mary by miraculous conception and development in her womb, and so God was born through her as The Son of God, Jesus Christ, Son of The Father, even though he is God as is the Father, but anyway, then Jesus died, but is present in the world still as The Holy Spirit which can be inside people or their hearts all over the world or move them, but is not everywhere or in everyone maybe.

Like, it would make me want to say "please, shut it", its terrible, its a terrible "mystery", and so much simpler to just say There is One God, Jesus is Not God or the Son of God, God is not a Man and doesn't have Sons and is no ones Father, and God is always present everywhere whatsoever and aware of everything, so call upon the One God, not Three or a Trinity.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't understand how The Holy Trinity is so controversial...

And I don't see why it is taken to be polytheism either

It seems to make perfect sense to me:

View attachment 44829
It's a single entitiy made up of three separate parts

Just like a triangle is a single entity made out of three separate lines...

It says that God is a single entity which we may know as either a Father, the Holy Spirit, or as Jesus Christ

I know people find this confusing and call it polytheism but I don't really know why...

I'm not out to bicker or debate, I genuinely want to know :D

I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism

. . . because it proposes a Tritheism of three persons being Gods, and thus polytheism.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Thank you for your interesting and informative response

There is much in your reply but some assumptions that I don't share popped out at me

Furthermore, the question arises as to why the convoluted and confusing façade?

Perhaps it is only convoluting and confusing to those of us who are not God?

I believe God is ineffable

What if the trinity is the most brief and efficient means of explaining the nature of God?

What if that's how God wants us to know him?

It isn't as simple as "these are just three forms of One Being", since they are talking to each other, praying to each other, and it doesn't even really appear true entirely that the Son is the Father which is understood to be the main term for God overall.

This is based on the assumption that God's (single) mind is unicameral

It could be tricameral

Check this out for a hint of what I'm getting at:

Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
. . . because it proposes a Tritheism of three persons being Gods, and thus polytheism.

How?

I have a gold bangle, a gold necklace, and a gold ring. All are gold. The are the same in their true nature, but are all separate appearances of gold. From my perception, the bangle is not a necklace or a ring, the necklace is not a bangle or a ring, and the ring is not a bangle or a necklace. But all are gold.
 

SeekerOnThePath

On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
I don't understand how The Holy Trinity is so controversial...

And I don't see why it is taken to be polytheism either

It seems to make perfect sense to me:

View attachment 44829
It's a single entitiy made up of three separate parts

Just like a triangle is a single entity made out of three separate lines...

It says that God is a single entity which we may know as either a Father, the Holy Spirit, or as Jesus Christ

I know people find this confusing and call it polytheism but I don't really know why...

I'm not out to bicker or debate, I genuinely want to know :D

I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism

It completely contradicts the very absolute and unchanging theology of the Old Testament (Tanakh).

As Deuteronomy 6:4 says: Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, the Lord is one.
(this is also the obvious Islamic position, read Surah Ikhlas)

"I am YHWH; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)

As Isaiah also says in 43:10-13:

“You are my witnesses,” declares YHWH,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am YHWH,
and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares YHWH, “that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”


Also 44:6-8:

“This is what YHWH says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.
Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”



There is only YHWH/HaShem/Eloah/El and nothing else.


As for the Trinity itself, the doctrine is a deliberate nonsensical paradox which is left by Christians in the "appeal to mystery".
The Trinity is not Monotheism but Christians try all the sophistry in the world to try and argue around this.

You may learn some things from this video:



If you believe in the God of Abraham, the God of Israel, then there is no way arguing around that God is One and God does not incarnate. The only God is God, nothing else, God does not give it's glory to another.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How?

I have a gold bangle, a gold necklace, and a gold ring. All are gold. The are the same in their true nature, but are all separate appearances of gold. From my perception, the bangle is not a necklace or a ring, the necklace is not a bangle or a ring, and the ring is not a bangle or a necklace. But all are gold.

They each have different functions. The nature is in their functions not whether they are gold or silver.

The nature of Christ is humans, God the creator, spirit is love and grace (the power of). They are not o another because humans aren't God and love isn't a creator. So their functions: creator, human/savior, and emotion/love nature is different therefore no Trinity. They work together: father sends son as a medium between him and man. Christ died and believers receive his spirit.

Trinitarians go by their relationship. One relationship, or God.

No trinitarians go by functions. Creator, human,spirit threw natures/three different functions.

It's not three gods. The problem is "calling" Jesus God and "worshiping" Jesus as God.

If Jesus were alive today, would you kneel to his feet or kneel "with" him at his father's feet?

The argument is the language and whose worshiped. As for paganism, Christianity has in part pagan roots. Not sure why that is wrong.

It's the human worship that's the issue. Both tend to agree on Jesus as medium but in my opinion trinitarians seem to be misguided by the reflection as the source. More so from ignorance and bias not proper disagreement.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How?

I have a gold bangle, a gold necklace, and a gold ring. All are gold. The are the same in their true nature, but are all separate appearances of gold. From my perception, the bangle is not a necklace or a ring, the necklace is not a bangle or a ring, and the ring is not a bangle or a necklace. But all are gold.

Very very poor analogy as usual. Physical comparisons like these only apply to the physical world, and not Gods. God is God the Father, Jesus Christ is the Son of God seated on the right hand of God as two distinct persons and Gods. Not sure where the Holy Spirit is wandering around.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Very very poor analogy as usual. Physical comparisons like these only apply to the physical world, and not Gods. God is God the Father, Jesus Christ is the Son of God seated on the right hand of God as two distinct persons and Gods. Not sure where the Holy Spirit is wandering around.

Wow! I score two ‘verys!’ That’s my highest @shunyadragon poor rating to date! Thank you!!

You clearly have much more expertise on affairs outside this physical world than I do. Please share your personal experiences of God with the class.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don't think it's polytheism, either, at least theologically. But it is a huge break with the other Abrahamic religions, which all have strict monotheistic views of God as far as I know. Christianity is very strange.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Wow! I score two ‘verys!’ That’s my highest @shunyadragon poor rating to date! Thank you!!

You clearly have much more expertise on affairs outside this physical world than I do. Please share your personal experiences of God with the class.
Nobody has more expertise on affairs outside the physical world than anyone else. Some have a greater creative imagination than others making their parallels.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Jesus and the Father are two completely separate individuals. They are not just different aspects of one being. Jesus said that the Father was greater than himself. How can one aspect of a being be greater than another aspect? Both Jesus and the Father make up what we call God. God is a spirit and He is holy so God is the holy spirit. There is no separate third being.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I know people find this confusing and call it polytheism but I don't really know why...

I'm not out to bicker or debate, I genuinely want to know :D

I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism

Well, it is polytheism, albeit soft polytheism (or soft monotheism if one prefers). Why this is imagined as a bad thing is perhaps the more interesting question. There's hardly anything wrong with polytheism, whether hard or soft, as a theological approach.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism
In polytheism the Gods have each their kingdom. A Sky God, Sea God, etc.
In Christianity the Holy Trinity rules all the world. The Holy Spirit and Jesus and Father aren't rulers of different kingdoms. The whole world is their kingdom altogether. So, it is one God. As I understand it. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I don't understand how The Holy Trinity is so controversial...

And I don't see why it is taken to be polytheism either

It seems to make perfect sense to me:

View attachment 44829
It's a single entitiy made up of three separate parts

Just like a triangle is a single entity made out of three separate lines...

It says that God is a single entity which we may know as either a Father, the Holy Spirit, or as Jesus Christ

I know people find this confusing and call it polytheism but I don't really know why...

I'm not out to bicker or debate, I genuinely want to know :D

I'm especially interested in the accusation of polytheism
VERY GOOD!

I love when God helps us understand when He said "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness"

Presentation1.jpg
 
Thank you for your interesting and informative response

There is much in your reply but some assumptions that I don't share popped out at me



Perhaps it is only convoluting and confusing to those of us who are not God?

I believe God is ineffable

What if the trinity is the most brief and efficient means of explaining the nature of God?

What if that's how God wants us to know him?



This is based on the assumption that God's (single) mind is unicameral

It could be tricameral

Check this out for a hint of what I'm getting at:

Bicameralism (psychology) - Wikipedia

Why would it be so though? Unless God is some creature, unless God is conditioned, only then would God be such a thing or forced into such a position and not be One simply.

Plus, no one seemed to think this until these Councils of Men decided such after centuries upon centuries of no one believing such a thing mainly. This was the first we have heard of this in all history. So maybe the random bum on the street saying God is a donkey is right? No one else thought so, but maybe it is that way, except it can't logically ever be that way, because for such to be the necessity it would require that God be constrained to certain conditions that made God such, and those conditions would then be more powerful than God, imposed upon God, and what created those conditions that pressure God into being that way?

"
What if the trinity is the most brief and efficient means of explaining the nature of God?

What if that's how God wants us to know him?
"
It could be, except that God hadn't informed any people of this through all time, except when men made these decisions in councils, it is nowhere explicitly stated even in the scriptures. So why is God being so coy about it?

So neither is it linguistically sane or logical, neither is it reasonable, neither is it philosophically sensible, neither is it with any precedent, neither is it mathematical, it has no precedent in anything, it would require conditions to be necessity or something God didn't freely choose and "just is" that way, and never was it described as such to any of the Prophets through time and cultures, so what is this but the exaggeration and invention of some men and their councils arguing? Not all of them even agreed, and those who disagreed were banished, such as the Arian Christians and many others. It was a senseless lie forced upon people through threats to their livelihood and success in life, it was a "thought crime" perpetrated on huge swathes of the human population, to force them to believe in what is senseless and absurd and even insults God who is One and not Three Minds, otherwise God is All Minds, why just Three? Why not Four, Six, 12, why not the Olympians? Just because a Council of Men say so? They should be thrown in a ditch for what they did to people and what kind of madness they pressured people to believe in and how they blasphemed the True God of Everyone Else but them.

How about Omnicameral, that becomes One again, better than Three. All and One are both better than Three.
 
I don't think it's polytheism, either, at least theologically. But it is a huge break with the other Abrahamic religions, which all have strict monotheistic views of God as far as I know. Christianity is very strange.
Very probably the most strange as far as I've seen. Even Polytheistic stuff is a lot more sensible overall, and doesn't seem to ever suggest "A God is born as his own Son and insists upon being call the Son of Himself".
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Very probably the most strange as far as I've seen. Even Polytheistic stuff is a lot more sensible overall, and doesn't seem to ever suggest "A God is born as his own Son and insists upon being call the Son of Himself".
Yeah, the Trinity is unlike the concept of deity found in any other religion I know of. I blame Greek philosophy. Lol
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
In polytheism the Gods have each their kingdom. A Sky God, Sea God, etc.
In Christianity the Holy Trinity rules all the world. The Holy Spirit and Jesus and Father aren't rulers of different kingdoms. The whole world is their kingdom altogether. So, it is one God. As I understand it. :)

That is too much of a generalization of what is polytheism . . . but nonetheless God the Father and Jesus Son of God have separate roles in the Trinity. The Bible indicates Jesus Christ has existed eternally and is responsible for the actual Creation.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
That is too much of a generalization of what is polytheism . . . but nonetheless God the Father and Jesus Son of God have separate roles in the Trinity. The Bible indicates Jesus Christ has existed eternally and is responsible for the actual Creation.
When people wanted rain, they ask the God of rain, snow, the God of snow, and so on. Polytheism is different Gods on different fields. All the pantheons have Gods with attributes that are separate.
In Christianity, all attributes go to the trinity. Rain? Jesus. Snow? Jesus. and so on.
 
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