Why is it important for muslims.......?

[1robin]

We may contrast these two views, both claiming correctness for their own understanding alone.

In this context I am not even arguing which is true, but they can't possibly both be and remain in tact. Not to mention the thousands of exclusive claims in additional religions. My original point was that pluralism in most cases is simply not possible.

 

[atanu]

Attitude if some Muslims again other religion often makes me wonder if religion is worth it..

Most Christians, IMO, are no better. Or rather they are more infected with sense of their own divinity, than any other group. I believe, holy Quran speaks of this.

4. 49. Hast thou not seen those who praise themselves for purity? Nay, Allah purifieth whom He will, and they will not be wronged even the hair upon a date stone.

And also

Matthew 7.3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

 

[atanu]

In this context I am not even arguing which is true, but they can't possibly both be and remain in tact. Not to mention the thousands of exclusive claims in additional religions. My original point was that pluralism in most cases is simply not possible.

Okay. But why the more general-eternal meaning is rejected? Especially, when the general-eternal meanings of many verses can satisfy diverse religions?

What makes one to stick to the narrow interpretations that with a little scrutiny can be shown to be non-eternal.

 

[1robin]

Okay. But why the more general-eternal meaning is rejected? Especially, when the general-eternal meanings of many verses can satisfy diverse religions?

What makes one to stick to the narrow interpretations that with a little scrutiny can be shown to be non-eternal.

I will leave Islam's verses to you for now but I can sufficiently comment on the Bible's verses. There is no possible contextual allowance for a non-eternal meaning to these verses:

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus saith to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

In what way is the only possible door through which one may be united to the father not an eternal issue? Is it possible to get into heaven where God's unique presence dwells without first passing through the only gateway to him (Christ).

No man cometh to the Father but by me - To come to the Father is to obtain his favor, to have access to his throne by prayer, and finally to enter his kingdom. No man can obtain any of these things except by the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. By coming by him is meant coming in his name and depending on his merits. We are ignorant, and he alone can guide us. We are sinful, and it is only by his merits that we can be pardoned. We are blind, and he only can enlighten us. God has appointed him as the Mediator, and has ordained that all blessings shall descend to this world through him. Hence he has put the world under his control; has given the affairs of men into his hand, and has appointed him to dispense whatever may be necessary for our peace, pardon, and salvation, Acts 4:12; Acts 5:31.
http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

You can find all the most accepted commentators on the Bible at this site and every one of them interpreted this verse with it's obvious eternal implications.
In another verse very similar to this one he says:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber
http://bible.cc/john/10-1.htm

Jesus as the shepherd and we as the sheep it is easy to see he is speaking of the kingdom of God (heaven). It tells us if anyone teaches or believes there is another way to enter the kingdom he is a thief trying to enter through an invalid (non-Christ) doorway and will be punished for it. There is only one way to God given by Christ. You may claim he is wrong but you can't claim he is not teaching an exclusive doctrine with eternal consequences.

Wesley's Notes
10:1 He that entereth not by the door - By Christ. He is the only lawful entrance. Into the sheepfold - The Church. He is a thief and a robber - In God's account. Such were all those teachers, to whom our Lord had just been speaking.


Claims the obvious interpretation is narrow is an attempt to cast in a false negative light and is invalid. The interpretation I have is the only justified understanding of these verses. It is not narrow it is correct and claims contrary to it are the teachings of men stumbling around in the darkness looking for a way to enter heaven by an invalid gate and in no uncertain terms condemned by these verses among hundreds more like them. Again you may claim Christ is wrong (good luck) but teaching he is one of many ways or his claims are not exclusive is simply wrong.

You said:

What makes one to stick to the narrow interpretations that with a little scrutiny can be shown to be non-eternal.

I answer: Context, truth, scholars, exegesis, overall narrative, internal consistency, the lack of an all pervading presupposition that everything is distorted in order to satisfy, and hermeneutics.

 

[1robin]

Most Christians, IMO, are no better. Or rather they are more infected with sense of their own divinity, than any other group. I believe, holy Quran speaks of this.

No Christian I have ever heard of nor any Biblical teaching indicates we are divine or ever could be.

 

[islam means peace]

OMG.:cover:

Do RFers's approve of this attitude ?

If some one approves, then why? Those who approve of the above attitude, may kindly answer:

• If God is beginningless and eternal, will His word be transient?
• Does Koran teach that there was no compulsion in religion?
• Do you remember Koran teaching that whoever was following the revelations (old or new) correctly need not fear wrath of God?
• Is this an example of peace that many claim islam to be?

I would try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

1- I am not sure what is the meaning of transient so cannto say anything.
2- Yes, so your old scriptures do say when ever Prophet Muhammad Salalhualiwasalam cames you should follow them, so if some body did not follow they are doing things against scriptures.
3- Yes, no body can give you force to accepte islam, we can only give you message and if you believe it with heart only then somebody is muslim.
4-Islam give us the message of peace and I did not find any un peacful statment in the RIF statement, it their right to show their views , it does not contain any thing which can heart some other person. Its your right not to agree but I did not find any where this statement unpeaceful

Sorry my english is not good, but hope you get what i mean and hope i got your questions right

 

[Me Myself]

No Christian I have ever heard of nor any Biblical teaching indicates we are divine or ever could be.

If I am divine when I am sick, how much more divine am I when I am healthy?

If I am divine in prison, how much more divine am I out of it?

If hungry and naked am I divine, why should I cease to be divine when I am clothed and well fed?

 

[1robin]

If I am divine when I am sick, how much more divine am I when I am healthy?

If I am divine in prison, how much more divine am I out of it?

If hungry and naked am I divine, why should I cease to be divine when I am clothed and well fed?

I do not follow this and am pretty sure you did not either. You, I, nor any mortal human is divine in any circumstance. This was the equivalent of asking are you any less a monkey if the glass is half full or half empty. Of course since random atoms with no intent or plan have enslaved you to their non-will then you can't help this type of stuff.

 

[Me Myself]

I do not follow this and am pretty sure you did not either.

Mathew 25: 40

 

[atanu]

I will leave Islam's verses to you for now but I can sufficiently comment on the Bible's verses. There is no possible contextual allowance for a non-eternal meaning to these verses:

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus saith to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

In what way is the only possible door through which one may be united to the father not an eternal issue? Is it possible to get into heaven where God's unique presence dwells without first passing through the only gateway to him (Christ).

No man cometh to the Father but by me - To come to the Father is to obtain his favor, to have access to his throne by prayer, and finally to enter his kingdom. No man can obtain any of these things except by the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. By coming by him is meant coming in his name and depending on his merits. We are ignorant, and he alone can guide us. We are sinful, and it is only by his merits that we can be pardoned. We are blind, and he only can enlighten us. God has appointed him as the Mediator, and has ordained that all blessings shall descend to this world through him. Hence he has put the world under his control; has given the affairs of men into his hand, and has appointed him to dispense whatever may be necessary for our peace, pardon, and salvation, Acts 4:12; Acts 5:31.
http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm

You can find all the most accepted commentators on the Bible at this site and every one of them interpreted this verse with it's obvious eternal implications.
In another verse very similar to this one he says:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber
http://bible.cc/john/10-1.htm

Jesus as the shepherd and we as the sheep it is easy to see he is speaking of the kingdom of God (heaven). It tells us if anyone teaches or believes there is another way to enter the kingdom he is a thief trying to enter through an invalid (non-Christ) doorway and will be punished for it. There is only one way to God given by Christ. You may claim he is wrong but you can't claim he is not teaching an exclusive doctrine with eternal consequences.

Wesley's Notes
10:1 He that entereth not by the door - By Christ. He is the only lawful entrance. Into the sheepfold - The Church. He is a thief and a robber - In God's account. Such were all those teachers, to whom our Lord had just been speaking.


Claims the obvious interpretation is narrow is an attempt to cast in a false negative light and is invalid. The interpretation I have is the only justified understanding of these verses. It is not narrow it is correct and claims contrary to it are the teachings of men stumbling around in the darkness looking for a way to enter heaven by an invalid gate and in no uncertain terms condemned by these verses among hundreds more like them. Again you may claim Christ is wrong (good luck) but teaching he is one of many ways or his claims are not exclusive is simply wrong.

You said:
I answer: Context, truth, scholars, exegesis, overall narrative, internal consistency, the lack of an all pervading presupposition that everything is distorted in order to satisfy, and hermeneutics.

Thanks. You have taken pains.

What is your idea of Christ? Is it a biped man?

 

[atanu]

4-Islam give us the message of peace and I did not find any un peacful statment in the RIF statement, it their right to show their views , it does not contain any thing which can heart some other person. Its your right not to agree but I did not find any where this statement unpeaceful

Sure it will feel like that to you. That is why I asked for a comparison with Christian claims based on "I am the way......."

Christians claim that a historical man called Jesus is the only way. And only a Christian is allowed salvation. All others are thiefs.

I think their claims are more peaceful than yours.

 

[1robin]

Mathew 25: 40

Matthew 25:40
New International Version (NIV)
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40&version=NIV

What is this?

I do not get it. Are you saying this verse in any way shape or form makes a faulty, non-eternal, ignorant human being divine in some way. This verse means to TREAT the least Christian with the same Kindness and consideration you would treat him with. I know people who treat pets as people does that make their pets human? I know people who consider cows sacred. Are they there for God's? I just do not got this verses relevance. I do know of one short verse that if no context is included might possibly be used to falsely claim we are divine. This isn't it and that is not even what that one verse means anyway.

 

[1robin]

Thanks. You have taken pains.

What is your idea of Christ? Is it a biped man?

He was as fully human as I am, and as fully God (or at least as divine in essence, but possibly not strength, while on Earth) as the father is.

 

[atanu]

He was as fully human as I am, and as fully God (or at least as divine in essence, but possibly not strength, while on Earth) as the father is.

Was or is he the way as a biped man?

 

[1robin]

Was or is he the way as a biped man?

My statement that he was human answered the question. Yes. I can't even begin to imagine why you needed to ask that.

 

[atanu]

My statement that he was human answered the question. Yes. I can't even begin to imagine why you needed to ask that.

So, before the advent of Jesus there was no way? That is what is implied, isn't it? Similarly with the claim of muslims with regard to Islam. Before Muhammad there was no correct way.

OTOH, "I am"' is universal. It is at the root of every being, whatever be the language. This understanding of "I am the way" is supported by "He was before all and all subsist in Him". This universal understanding of "I am the way" is supported by holy Quran too. Quran repeats so many times "Allah is the Seer. Allah is the knower........."

It is a principle that what begins must end. The eternal is without beginning and without end.

 

[1robin]

So, before the advent of Jesus there was no way? That is what is implied, isn't it? Similarly with the claim of Muslims with regard to Islam. Before Muhammad there was no correct way.

OTOH, "I am"' is universal. It is at the root of every being, whatever be the language. This understanding of "I am the way" is supported by "He was before all and all subsist in Him". This universal understanding of "I am the way" is supported by holy Quran too. Quran repeats so many times "Allah is the Seer. Allah is the knower........."
It is a principle that what begins must end. The eternal is without beginning and without end.

Your questions and comments are almost thought fragments. Before there was Jesus there was no what WHAT? If you meant salvation, yes there was but it is complex and involved sacrifices, and faith in a future messiah. The Bible also says that we are only accountable to the revelation we have. It will take some time to explain this if that is what you were asking. I was speaking of the way as the path to salvation. Covenants that apply at certain times and the law are different issues. I can't understand what you are saying.

You are right about "I am" but the secular in many cases and the Christian theory in most cases is that Muhammad invented a religion from himself. Many have done this and most try and link it to the Bible in some way to gain credibility. Muhammad did so by borrowing heretical and gnostic texts corrupted to the point many of these groups were kicked out of Israel and wound up in Muhammad’s Arabia. That is why his biblical knowledge was so full of errors and misunderstanding. We can follow most of theses false teachings spring up in Israel of other far flung Christian lands and then developed into infancy gospels, protovelum of James, apocalypse of Peter etc... Eventually get them run out of Christian or Judaistic lands and show up in Arabia shortly before Muhammad appeared. I would expect a false religion to try and gain credibility by associating with the most accepted one but get it wrong often and that is exactly what we find in the Quran. We also find every major Islamic practice already in place in pre Muhammad pagan cults that existed in Arabia at the time. It appears Muhammad built a religion borrowing 50% plus from all the beliefs that surrounded him. I can give much more detail if desired.

I did not understand the eternal issue. I suggest more detail and context in your posts.

 

[atanu]

Your questions and comments are almost thought fragments. Before there was Jesus there was no what WHAT? If you meant salvation, yes there was but it is complex and involved sacrifices, and faith in a future messiah. The Bible also says that we are only accountable to the revelation we have. It will take some time to explain this if that is what you were asking. I was speaking of the way as the path to salvation. Covenants that apply at certain times and the law are different issues. I can't understand what you are saying.

I will try to explain again. If "I am the way..." meant that Jesus the man was the way then was there no way to salvation before Jesus?

You are right about "I am" but the secular in many cases and the Christian theory in most cases is that Muhammad invented a religion from himself. Many have done this and most try and link it to the Bible in some way to gain credibility. Muhammad did so by borrowing heretical and gnostic texts corrupted to the point many of these groups were kicked out of Israel and wound up in Muhammad’s Arabia. That is why his biblical knowledge was so full of errors and misunderstanding. We can follow most of theses false teachings spring up in Israel of other far flung Christian lands and then developed into infancy gospels, protovelum of James, apocalypse of Peter etc... Eventually get them run out of Christian or Judaistic lands and show up in Arabia shortly before Muhammad appeared. I would expect a false religion to try and gain credibility by associating with the most accepted one but get it wrong often and that is exactly what we find in the Quran. We also find every major Islamic practice already in place in pre Muhammad pagan cults that existed in Arabia at the time. It appears Muhammad built a religion borrowing 50% plus from all the beliefs that surrounded him. I can give much more detail if desired.

It further means that the way to salvation is closed to all others.

Is God such a powerless thing that a Muhammad will be able to raise a false religion?

I ask similar question to muslim friends who hold that they alone are privy to God's word.

Actually such claims of exclusivity are either bigotry or simple ignorance of eternality of 'the way', in my opinion.


I did not understand the eternal issue. I suggest more detail and context in your posts. [/QUOTE]

 

[gnostic]

As an Ahmadi Muslim we believe that most of mankind will eventually be destroyed. But this will be after Islam dominates over other religions, proving the truth of the Holy Prophet (saw).

If Islam dominate other religion and mankind are mostly Muslims at that point, then why would God destroy most of mankind?

That doesn't make sense at all...unless, Islam itself has become corrupted? Or Islam wasn't the right religion in the 1st place?

 

[Gurtej]

If Islam dominate other religion and mankind are mostly Muslims at that point, then why would destroy most of mankind?

That doesn't make sense at all...unless, Islam itself has become corrupted? Or Islam wasn't the right religion in the 1st place?

Good point... May be VCR everyone is a Muslim ... Even god will loose every inch of faith...