Why I wouldn't be convinced even if I wasn't already unconvinced

[icehorse]

My beliefs require belief. And that’s convenient because I believe. My beliefs are steeped in the wording/language of a text given to a group that shares my beliefs in a language shared with those who share my belief. But I know that someone who doesn’t share my belief can easily dismiss my texts, my proofs and my beliefs. I’m OK with that. It just seems like an even more ridiculous ask to expect that someone reads the same texts and, especially in the context of “no beliefs” see the text as pointing to a character who simply is not in the text.

Do you think that you can usually find common ground - from a core values perspective - with people who don't share the beliefs you're discussing in this thread?

 

[Valjean]

You raise some good points.

We all use mental models to understand the world, and in general, those models agree with reality pretty well regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof.

... and it takes a lot for someone to completely abandon their mental model and adopt a new one. If we do encounter problems with our mental model, it's generally more reasonable to tweak the model we have a bit than to get rid of it completely.

Easier, more comfortable, but not necessarily more reasonable. If the problem encountered is with the very foundations upon which the model is erected, the reasonable approach might be to abandon the entire edifice.

 

[rosends]

Do you think that you can usually find common ground - from a core values perspective - with people who don't share the beliefs you're discussing in this thread?

To find common ground means talking a step back and evaluating my own position from someone else's perspective, granting that perspective validity and then seeing where there is overlap. It means putting qualifiers and conceding that my position is just mine and is developed through a lens that is particular to me (or my belief group). The question is, once that is acknowledged, what is there to discuss? Often the answer is "ideas about my or the other's beliefs for the sake of information gathering." Once there is no pretense of convincing, people can simply present what they understand and why and stop there, or ask questions in order to learn with no demand of acceptance. It depends on the people involved -- some can't do this, some don't want to.

I think it takes an amount of brutal self-honesty, accepting that what I do and what I believe looks dumb and irrational to others. I'm OK with that.

 

[101G]

so, again, through all of your interpretations, you cannot show me Jesus in the text.

lol, lol, lol, been showing you all along, but you cannot see. you're looking for the literal word. "JESUS", well here he is again, JESUS is the ARM of God, in flesh.

let you see him again, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." Jesus saved us from our sin. cam't see him there either?

how about here, Psalms 18:2 "The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower."
my Salvation, YESHUA.

or here, Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

or here, Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

all the ARM of God. and there are many more.

he that has ear to hear... and NOT EYES TO SEE.

101G.

 

[rosends]

lol, lol, lol, been showing you all along, but you cannot see. you're looking for the literal word. "JESUS",

Yes, and you are unable to show it. Thank you.

 

[icehorse]

To find common ground means talking a step back and evaluating my own position from someone else's perspective, granting that perspective validity and then seeing where there is overlap. It means putting qualifiers and conceding that my position is just mine and is developed through a lens that is particular to me (or my belief group). The question is, once that is acknowledged, what is there to discuss? Often the answer is "ideas about my or the other's beliefs for the sake of information gathering." Once there is no pretense of convincing, people can simply present what they understand and why and stop there, or ask questions in order to learn with no demand of acceptance. It depends on the people involved -- some can't do this, some don't want to.

I think it takes an amount of brutal self-honesty, accepting that what I do and what I believe looks dumb and irrational to others. I'm OK with that.

Another perspective is that taking a step back gives you the opportunity to get in touch with what core values you hold that are foundational to the beliefs we're discussing. For example, it might be that you hold the golden rule as a core value and that someone who adheres to a different scripture might also value the golden rule.

That approach seems less emotionally daunting than what you just described.

 

[metis]

let you see him again, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." Jesus saved us from our sin. cam't see him there either?

Simply put, Isaiah is definitely not about Jesus, especially since it deals with people and events long beofte Jesus' time.

For example, in Jerome's Bible Commentary, it states that Isaiah isn't directly about Jesus, but events leading up to Jesus and what Jesus meant to his followers can be interpreted so as to sort of "prefigure" him. Even though both Jewish and Christian scriptures are linear timewise, there is some "circling" that one can see as well.

 

[101G]

Yes, and you are unable to show it. Thank you.

(smile} once again, Isaiah 29:10 "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered." Isaiah 29:11 "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:" Isaiah 29:12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

now let 101G open your eyes to "JESUS". Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, or any good bible dictionary,
Shiloh: H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.

Now the Messiah. Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

here, Daniel said this Messiah is a prince, and definition #1. of Shiloh above means tranquil, or PEACE, and Isaiah 9:6 identifies this PRINCE of PEACE, as the MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

the PRINCE of PEACE, Shiloh. is Jesus the Christ

also another word for Messiah is Redeemer, and Saviour... and many more names.... (smile). see, you didn't see that either, and these titles are the "LORD's" ..... YIKES. yes, "JESUS" is written all over your OT, just hidden from NATURAL EYES. ... ...Oh dear.

101G.

 

[101G]

Simply put, Isaiah is definitely not about Jesus, especially since it deals with people and events long beofte Jesus' time.

it's prophecy.

101G.

 

[Alien826]

Speaking as one of the Jewish Rabbis, I have no problem getting a quart out of a pint. I just don't expect anyone else to understand or accept the quart from me.

Fair enough. No offense intended.

Edit: Do you think that God intended the scriptures to be "mined" in this way and put layers of meaning in them that makes theology similar to a code breaking exercise? I would think that aiming for a straightforward and easily understandable message would be more likely.

 

[metis]

it's prophecy.

101G.

But what it's prophesizing may not be what you want to have it say, and any detailed analysis shows that it simply cannot refer specifically to Jesus because it reinforces Jewish Law, all 613 Commandants, such as keeping kosher that is reinformed in the last chapter of Isaiah.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If the expectation on an atheist is that he or she should accept that the text is about Jesus because a person of faith cites a separate text whose authority demands that a person, a priori, has faith, then I can’t see how any atheist would be swayed.

Skeptic here. I know of nobody that isn't a believer that has ever seen Jesus of the New Testament foretold by messianic prophecy in the Old Testament. Believers often see what they want to see, which is not what others see.

I think it takes an amount of brutal self-honesty, accepting that what I do and what I believe looks dumb and irrational to others. I'm OK with that.

Agreed, and good for you. You don't look dumb. I just don't want to go there myself. I just have no use for religion, and would find no value in a god belief. The universe seems mysterious and sacred enough without one, and I'm fine with the possibility that the universe is godless and that consciousness is extinguished at death. Also, I'm not looking for moral guidance in holy books or any other kind of book, so there's no value added holding such beliefs.

But I tell the faithful quite often that they don't need to make pseudoscientific and fallacious arguments, and in fact shouldn't, since it pays homage to real science and sound reasoning, which aren't how such beliefs are arrived at. So why give them as justification for a belief that is believed by faith? Who's going to argue with, "It just feels right to me and I believe it." Not I. I don't get involved until the profaning of reason begins. This is the part so many of the faithful hate and frame as attack. No problem. Just stop making errors of fact and reason to justify what is believed by faith.

Atheist arguments aren't so much about textual analysis as they are rational and logical objections to factual claims and made by religion.

Agreed. Critical thinkers are interested in people's reasons for their beliefs, not the beliefs themselves, especially if they're unfalsifiable claims, which is what theology is - the implications of belief in the existence of a particular god. I don't consider academic subjects like comparative religions or the Bible as literature or a cultural influence theology, although some may use the word that way.

 

[101G]

But what it's prophesizing may not be what you want to have it say, and any detailed analysis shows that it simply cannot refer specifically to Jesus because it reinforces Jewish Law, all 613 Commandants, such as keeping kosher that is reinformed in the last chapter of Isaiah.

God word is supreme no need for me or you to apply what we want to any verse.. let's see
Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

question, WHO is God "OWN" ARM here? your answer please.

101G.

 

[rosends]

(smile} once again, Isaiah 29:10 "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered." Isaiah 29:11 "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:" Isaiah 29:12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

now let 101G open your eyes to "JESUS". Genesis 49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, or any good bible dictionary,
Shiloh: H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.

Now the Messiah. Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

here, Daniel said this Messiah is a prince, and definition #1. of Shiloh above means tranquil, or PEACE, and Isaiah 9:6 identifies this PRINCE of PEACE, as the MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

the PRINCE of PEACE, Shiloh. is Jesus the Christ

also another word for Messiah is Redeemer, and Saviour... and many more names.... (smile). see, you didn't see that either, and these titles are the "LORD's" ..... YIKES. yes, "JESUS" is written all over your OT, just hidden from NATURAL EYES. ... ...Oh dear.

101G.

If according to your interpretation of choice Shiloh means peace, someone could claim a Messiah named Shalom is named in the text with equal validity.

 

[rosends]

Fair enough. No offense intended.

Edit: Do you think that God intended the scriptures to be "mined" in this way and put layers of meaning in them that makes theology similar to a code breaking exercise? I would think that aiming for a straightforward and easily understandable message would be more likely.

As a function of faith, yes, I do see intended layers of meaning intented in the text. There is a lot more, but all an expression of belief and nothing particularly convincing.

 

[101G]

If according to your interpretation of choice Shiloh means peace, someone could claim a Messiah named Shalom is named in the text with equal validity.

ERROR, only God saves, and God ARM saved his People from their Sins. no human can save from DEATH which is the wages of Sin. so God made a NEW "BINDING" COVENANT, and EVERLASTING COVDENANT where sin ands death is no more. hence why we PREACH "YESHUA", "JESUS, for he, GOD, will save us from our sins.

101G.

 

[metis]

God word is supreme no need for me or you to apply what we want to any verse.. let's see
Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

question, WHO is God "OWN" ARM here? your answer please.

101G.

Keep reading:
[6] I trod down the peoples in my anger,
I made them drunk in my wrath,
and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
[7] I will recount the steadfast love of the LORD,
the praises of the LORD,
according to all that the LORD has granted us,
and the great goodness to the house of Israel
which he has granted them according to his mercy,
according to the abundance of his steadfast love.
[8] For he said, Surely they are my people,
sons who will not deal falsely;
and he became their Savior.

Notice the present tense in terms of "Surely they are my people"-- not future tense. And that becomes even more clear with verses that follow.

 

[Valjean]

ERROR, only God saves, and God ARM saved his People from their Sins. no human can save from DEATH which is the wages of Sin. so God made a NEW "BINDING" COVENANT, and EVERLASTING COVDENANT where sin ands death is no more. hence why we PREACH "YESHUA", "JESUS, for he, GOD, will save us from our sins.

101G.

You're preaching.
Please back up your assertions.

 

[101G]

You're preaching.
Please back up your assertions.

no Preaching, just bible FACTS. Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

101G.

 

[Valjean]

no Preaching, just bible FACTS. Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Please authenticate your source of "facts," before citing them.