Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

[ChristineM]

I already said I do not want to argue about this anymore.

What I have is evidence because it fits the definition of evidence. It indicates that my belief is true.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:

I never said I had proof.
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

You can call it a belief if you want to. It is a belief because I do not have verifiable evidence (proof) that establishes as a fact that my belief is true.

Nevertheless it is a belief that I know is true. I do not need objective proof in order to know it is true. I just know.

Yet you argue??

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you’re relying on a supposed revelation to one person, shared with humanity, that God doesn’t just give one person a revelation to share with humanity?

Huh? There are 40 Bible authors, and Jesus specifically reproved the rabbis that His ministry "wasn't done in the corner". He came to the Temple, taught daily, had 500 devoted disciples and thousands of listeners at His sermons...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Huh? There are 40 Bible authors, and Jesus specifically reproved the rabbis that His ministry "wasn't done in the corner". He came to the Temple, taught daily, had 500 devoted disciples and thousands of listeners at His sermons...

I was talking about Paul's Epistle to the Romans. You do believe that it was a revelation to one person, right?

 

[Thief]

On another forum I said: “One reason God does not communicate to everyone is because everyone does not deserve to know that God exists.” I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them.

Then this one atheist said that was a lame-*** excuse and he says it is just common sense that God should communicate directly to everyone.

This is what he has been saying to me for over three years. Everyone (all of the 7.4 billion people in the world) should get direct communication from God. God should not use Messengers because not everyone believes in them, especially in the beginning, when they first show up on earth.

What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

I have mixed logic on this topic

some intervention is needed now and then
and leaving that responsibility to only a few....does seem haphazard

but.....immediate mind to mind would set us up like the Borg of Star Trek fame

 

[Thief]

one on One.....like Moses?

the story I got.....Moses stammered

must have been a tough conversation
40 days and nights
and nothing to eat or drink

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The one thing God isn't, is 'sentimental'. Emotion has nothing to do with the implementation of his justice.
To allow personal sentimentality to outweigh Jehovah's perfect justice is not even a question for me.

It brought many wars thinking this way

I show my love to people by going out and telling them about God's wonderful plans for the future....I have no control over whether they listen or not. I feel bad for them, but it is God doing the judging,

Thatd not the question. I couldnt believe in a god whose love is conditional. That puts me in a position of negativity. Also, if a non-believer needed help and the only way to help is to disregard my belief, and I knew god wouldnt like that, that already signals Id be believing something off.

We compare our own logic and experiences to understand those who sees differently than us. Especially when it involves a persons spiritual wellbeing.

If god told yall to, I really really think believers would kill non-believers if your god told you too. There is no "but god will save them" thats an excuse to justift murder is right because god says so.

It doesnt have to be death:

Why is it exhausting to contemplate the outcome of people's own decisions? Everyone will reap what they have sown. All this system has done, is sort people out. They themselves have either chosen God as their Sovereign Ruler...or the pretender to whom God gave world rulership. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Everyone reeps what they sow when they make bad decisions against their well being, health, mental, spiritual, whatever.

It has nothing to do with what a person believes or dont. Belief doesnt do anything. I dont see how one can "reep what they sow" when their belief doesnt condone the death of a persons spiritual wellbeing based on their decision of whats positive and best for their own wellbeing and someone elses.

I see it exhausting to think that people reep what they sow because my belief says they will suffer if they dont believe in my god. Its negative.

It gets people killed (coerced, indoctrinated, threatened, influenced,etc) all the time. What is positive in that?

 

[columbus]

Huh? There are 40 Bible authors, and Jesus specifically reproved the rabbis that His ministry "wasn't done in the corner". He came to the Temple, taught daily, had 500 devoted disciples and thousands of listeners at His sermons...

Nevertheless,
On one of the busiest days of the year in Jerusalem, Jesus is brutally and very publicly executed by crucifixion. This crucifixion is accompanied by solar eclipse and earthquake. A week later He's back, perfectly healthy and preaching.

I would expect a huge tumult if that happened. But there's nothing like that. Almost nothing at all, until Paul came along and started reinventing Jesus's Message. That's the first that anybody outside Jesus's following even notice this earthshaking event.

I don't find that plausible in the least.
Tom

 

[viole]

There is a passage that says that God was alone with nobody to know Him so that is why He created man.

And woman.

Bu I understand Him. It is not nice to be lonely, especially after so many years that they look like an eternity. One might even start to go so crazy to doubt His own existence. And it would be suboptimal to have an atheistic God.

Like I said above, God does not need us to get the message for His benefit. He wants us to get the message in order for humanity to survive and progress.

However, it seems like big progress started more or less at the same time we started doubting those messengers.

No, Manifestations of God are not deluded. Only humans can be deluded and sometimes they are, sometimes not.

What on earth is a deluded manifestation? Anyway, as a believer in God X, you must necessarily accept that the majority of humans are deluded, for no matter what God is X, He does not have the absolute majority. We are more ecumenical concerning religious delusions.

Of course I do. Because I have the full context I understand what it means thus it makes perfect sense to me.

Way to go.

Ciao

- viole

 

[1213]

...What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

I think God communicates directly through the Bible. If that message is not good enough for person, it wouldn’t make any difference, even if God would directly say the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

And woman.

When I say man, I mean humankind.

But I understand Him. It is not nice to be lonely, especially after so many years that they look like an eternity. One might even start to go so crazy to doubt His own existence. And it would be suboptimal to have an atheistic God.

No, God does not get lonely... God is not a human so we cannot project human attributes onto God.

Baha’u’llah did describe God though, as that was part of Baha’u’llah’s job... This is one of many descriptions, one of my favorites...

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

The reason Baha’u’llah said to beware concerning a reference to the existence of two Gods is because some people claim that they are part of God or God is part of them, or that they are in some way equal to God, or that they can talk to God and hear God reply (e.g., Christians and the Holy Spirit, but there are other non-religious people who make the same claims). Only in a figurative sense are we God’s Children because we are God’s creation, but God does not have children as part of a family the way some Christians believe. God is one and alone, as the passage says.

However, it seems like big progress started more or less at the same time we started doubting those messengers.

The progress started because the Bab and Baha’u’llah came and released spiritual energies (the Holy Spirit) into the world which stimulated the progress. It does not matter who rejected or accepted them, once that energy is released into the world the progress continues unabated.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

What on earth is a deluded manifestation? Anyway, as a believer in God X, you must necessarily accept that the majority of humans are deluded, for no matter what God is X, He does not have the absolute majority. We are more ecumenical concerning religious delusions.

To a certain extent yes, the majority of humans are deluded. All the major religions have part of the truth, but not all of the truth. Nonbelievers are not deluded because they do not normally make false claims about God/gods. It is no wonder nobody knows where to go for the truth given all the varying views of God that are now out there. Baha’u’llah predicted this would happen...

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet you argue??

I am trying not to. I am trying really hard.
The only way for me to avoid that is just not to respond when people contradict what I say.
When people say I do not have evidence and I know I have evidence that is contradicting me.
When people keep repeating that and insisting upon it that causes an argument.
What is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person unless they have the same beliefs.
It is really that simple.

 

[CG Didymus]

It brought many wars thinking this way



Thatd not the question. I couldnt believe in a god whose love is conditional. That puts me in a position of negativity. Also, if a non-believer needed help and the only way to help is to disregard my belief, and I knew god wouldnt like that, that already signals Id be believing something off.

We compare our own logic and experiences to understand those who sees differently than us. Especially when it involves a persons spiritual wellbeing.

If god told yall to, I really really think believers would kill non-believers if your god told you too. There is no "but god will save them" thats an excuse to justift murder is right because god says so.

It doesnt have to be death:



Everyone reeps what they sow when they make bad decisions against their well being, health, mental, spiritual, whatever.

It has nothing to do with what a person believes or dont. Belief doesnt do anything. I dont see how one can "reep what they sow" when their belief doesnt condone the death of a persons spiritual wellbeing based on their decision of whats positive and best for their own wellbeing and someone elses.

I see it exhausting to think that people reep what they sow because my belief says they will suffer if they dont believe in my god. Its negative.

It gets people killed (coerced, indoctrinated, threatened, influenced,etc) all the time. What is positive in that?

It's tough for me to believe in the God of the Bible, because in it God himself orders the Hebrews to kill all the people, including the women and children, in a city. He floods the whole world killing everyone but Noah and his family. He has the Hebrew fighting men draw their swords and kill the man standing next to them. And he tells Abraham to kill his son. Who would listen to a God like that?

Belief in the Bible taken to an extreme is dangerous.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think God communicates directly through the Bible. If that message is not good enough for person, it wouldn’t make any difference, even if God would directly say the same.

Could you comment on Christians being in dwelt by the Holy Spirit? Isn't there Bible verses that say is true?

 

[Deeje]

It brought many wars thinking this way

Because we have free will, no one dictates to us how or what to think, or what to believe......we do that. Our own disposition, desires and wants are ours...we own them....they make us who we are. God has little to do with that.

Through his word and spirit, God "draws" those in whom he sees an obedient heart. Not everyone has one.

Unless we can follow God's direction without challenging or arguing, he doesn't want us in the new world that he will create where all will surrender their own will to him...not as a malevolent dictator to fear, but as a loving Father who knows what is best for us. Its about trust. If our first parents had trusted their Creator like that, we would not be in this predicament....but free will was theirs to exercise. God did not prevent them from disobeying him...but he allowed them to see where disobedience would lead them and their children.....and here we are, in a world where the majority are godless and with no love of God and neighbor to speak of.

I couldnt believe in a god whose love is conditional. That puts me in a position of negativity. Also, if a non-believer needed help and the only way to help is to disregard my belief, and I knew god wouldnt like that, that already signals Id be believing something off.

It isn't that his love is conditional in that sense....it is that he allows us to be who we are without his intervention.
When the judgment comes, no one will be able to say to God..."that's not fair!" because God judges us on who we are all by ourselves, but not superficially. He is a reader of hearts and knows the person within. He also knows when a person has been stifled by circumstances beyond their control....so the judgment will be fair based on all the facts...which we do not know. I have no doubt that there will be some missing who thought they were saved....whilst others are present who thought they weren't. We are not the judges...remember?

If god told yall to, I really really think believers would kill non-believers if your god told you too. There is no "but god will save them" thats an excuse to justift murder is right because god says so.

It doesnt have to be death:

God does not commit murder....and he has never instructed his people to commit murder."Thou shalt not murder" was part of the 10 Commandments. (It never was "thou shalt not kill") To "murder" is to take someone's life 'unlawfully'. If a judge sentences you to death, then the executioner is not a murderer.

It has nothing to do with what a person believes or dont. Belief doesnt do anything. I dont see how one can "reep what they sow" when their belief doesnt condone the death of a persons spiritual wellbeing based on their decision of whats positive and best for their own wellbeing and someone elses.

All have equal opportunity to get to know God. He can see when a person is genuinely seeking him....he can also see when a person's own will is stronger than their desire to do his will. (Matthew 7:21-23)

I see it exhausting to think that people reep what they sow because my belief says they will suffer if they dont believe in my god. Its negative.

It's only negative to those who chafe under God's direction. That only happens when a person's own will is in opposition to God's. When God's will is also our will, then nothing is exhausting...it is uplifting and up building.

To the Galatians Paul wrote about the contrast between the works of the flesh and the fruits of God's spirit....

"Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Based on that, people who feel exhausted by the thought of obeying God are in the wrong religion and living by the wrong rules IMO. The works of the flesh are in opposition to the fruits of the spirit.

It gets people killed (coerced, indoctrinated, threatened, influenced,etc) all the time. What is positive in that?

How people interpret scripture is up to them. They can justify their beliefs and behaviors till the cows come home....but the one person that is the easiest to fool is ourselves. We can never fool God however.

If we live by the teachings of the Christ 24/7 then life will filled with the joys that come from working on our Christian personality.

Paul put it this way...."...Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it". (Colossians 3:9-10) We can only do that if we want to.

 

[Thief]

time for the big question.....

anyone here
have you heard the Voice of God?
as did Moses

not I
but somethings of my life have no other explanation

 

[Trailblazer]

You might be interested to know that in the early 18th century one of the early English Deists - Matthew Tindal - wrote a book related to your topic entitled Christianity as Old as the Creation in which he made the argument that if God intended humans to follow the moral precepts of Christianity, He would have ensured that every human in every generation would have been aware of this requirement naturally - since it would have been unjust of God to have required obedience of more ancient generations to a moral requirement that was not revealed until long after they had lived and died. It was a very strong argument against revelation and was for a while considered the "Deist Bible".

Thanks for that bit of history. There are so many differing views on the Bible it is impossible to sort them all out. I am very grateful that I do not have to. How many more years are people going to continue referring to an ancient book for religious truth? It makes no sense at all. In that sense, I think atheists are far out ahead of Jews and Christians. They can see something is not right, they just do not understand what it is.

God did not require anyone to be obedient to Messengers of God who came before they lived, so God did not require that Jews who lived before Jesus were obedient to what Jesus revealed. That would have been unjust. I do not understand how that could be used as an argument against Progressive Revelation that Baha’is believe in, but of course that had not been revealed until the 19th century.

I think your atheist friend is trying to get across the point that it is paradoxical to claim that an all-loving God would reveal the most important information exclusively to those who already had great faith in Him.

I guess you are referring to the Messengers of God, the Manifestations of God? It makes sense to me that God would reveal Himself to them because they would be the most likely to believe in the message from God. But that is not the reason God reveals the message to them. The reason is because they are the only ones with a universal divine mind, so they are the only ones who would understand a message from God.

The point my atheist friend has been making is that God should communicate directly with everyone rather than use a Messenger who can get that information out to everyone. He thinks that God owes everyone a direct communication if God expects everyone to believe in Him.

If there is an omnibenevolent and omnipotent deity, it is perfectly obvious that the most important truths about "Him" and "His requirements of humans" must be self-evident to all or their judgement is based on the arbitrary distinctions of personal intelligence and perceptiveness and nothing to do with morality.

It would be nice if the truths conveyed to the Messenger were self-evident to all but that is impossible because all people are not going to perceive the Messenger the same way and many will not recognize that He is from God. If God revealed those truths to each person individually, they would be unable to understand them, since ordinary humans do not have the capacity to understand direct communication from God. That is why a mediator between God and man is necessary.

Tindal and the 18th century Deists (by and large) felt that God was indeed was the author of human morality - but that the moral code endowed by the Creator was self-evident (a notion you might recognize from the Declaration of Independence).

Morality might be self-evident to most people but not to all people, which is why Messengers of God are needed. Humans have a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature, so they have the ability to do either good or evil. When one has a real and living belief in a religion, the teachings helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our actions.

It is equally obvious that this "self-evident" moral code has evolved significantly since the early 18th century - we no longer believe that it is OK to keep other humans as slaves for example. And it has continued to evolve since the latest update was reportedly handed down through a 19th century Persian nobleman. We no longer (at least most 'enlightened' people at any rate) believe that homosexuality is inherently 'sinful', for example.

Yes, that is true. Humanity has evolved morally and spiritually which is why humanity was ready for a new revelation from God in the 19th century, a revelation that would hold them to a higher standard of moral behavior than ever before in the history of mankind.

"Revelation" is an encapsulation of how far a particular religious community has come up to the time of that "revelation" - it is not a prescription for the future moral evolution of humanity - even if that is what it pretends to be. Revelation is out of date the minute it is scratched onto a tablet - which is why it has to be continually "interpreted".

No, I do not think that any revelation from God is s prescription for the future moral evolution of humanity. God, the Divine Physician, has to change that prescription in every new age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Every revelation from God is intended to be pertinent until the next Messenger of God appears with a new revelation. Unfortunately, all the revelations that preceded the Revelation of Baha’u’llah became corrupted soon after they were revealed because there was no written Covenant passing along a successor after the Messenger died, thus nobody was given authority to safeguard the religion and interpret the scriptures. With no clear provisions for authority the religions eventually split up into sects and each had their own interpretations. To this very day, there is no agreement among the various sects of Christianity on what most Bible verses mean.

 

[siti]

That would have been unjust. I do not understand how that could be used as an argument against Progressive Revelation that Baha’is believe in, but of course that had not been revealed until the 19th century.

Well quite! So perhaps Baha'u'llah was attempting to answer a question that had become so pressingly obvious to humanity that people had already written books about it over a century before he was born rather than recording a divine revelation that was genuinely new to human thinking?

 

[Trailblazer]

Life isn't about Believing. Life isn't about God at all. Life is the education of God's children. It's all about US.

Let's look at this world. One must work to acquire knowledge and wisdom. So much is learned on the journey to Discover. Being told will never teach like Living our lessons.

Life is about doing but depending upon what we believe we will do what we do. That is the importance of religious beliefs, their inherent value. What the Prophets of God reveal in their teachings help us discover and unleash our potential, what is latent within our inmost true self.

“Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

We are learning our lessons through our free choices and the consequences that return. God does not speak to everyone simply because God does not want to intimidate our choices in any way.

I can certainly agree with that. If God spoke to everyone directly that would certainly intimidate and affect their ability to choose freely. I believe that God speaks through Messengers so we are free to choose to listen to that Guidance or not. We still have to apply those teachings to our lives they are just a guide to right living. Maybe not all people need a guide but the Messengers address humanity collectively, and within that collective many people need guidance and some are in desperate need of guidance.

There is another reason God does not speak to everyone. Most do not have a concept of God's intelligence. God is working on multiple levels with multiple views. In reality, a true conversation with God would leave most people confused. It might take a week to figure out everything that was said in just a few moments. Further, how much was missed by our limited intellect in the conversation? Mankind carries such a narrow view!

I can certainly agree with that but I take it one step further to say that no ordinary man could understand God at all. That is one reason why God does not speak directly to ordinary men, only to His chosen Messengers who have a universal divine mind and are thus capable of understanding communication from God and transmitting it to the rest of humanity in a way that we are able to understand it. In a sense they are mediators and translators.

As I see it, after death we will all see God. This is nothing for anyone to worry about. God is Unconditional Love. Further, everyone already knows God.

I do not believe anyone will ever “see God” but that we will experience God’s Presence. I believe that we will still have to go through the mediators because God is too great to be known directly.

The mysteries of what lies beyond man’s physical death have not been divulged, and still remain unwritten. Nobody can really know for sure if there is anything to worry about but it makes no sense that everyone is going to experience God the same way, since we are all individuals. We will reap what we sowed. God’s Love must be tempered by God’s Justice. Anything else would be unjust.

In conclusion, It's all about US, God's children. As I see it. It doesn't matter about Believing. Everyone is as valuable as any other one. I would say: Be who you must! It's a part of the plan. Your choices return to teach you what your choices mean so try to make good ones.

We are here on earth to learn. The purpose of Prophets is to educate all men such that they can make good choices and thereby prepare themselves for life in the spiritual world.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

We create our own destiny by the choices we make. God does not make those choices for us but God knows what those choices will be because God’s essential knowledge surrounds the reality of all things.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well quite! So perhaps Baha'u'llah was attempting to answer a question that had become so pressingly obvious to humanity that people had already written books about it over a century before he was born rather than recording a divine revelation that was genuinely new to human thinking?

Baha'u'llah never claimed that everything He revealed was "new." Some of His Writings were a reiteration of past truths that were restated in a way that is suited for the intellectual and spiritual maturity of humanity in this new age.

The concept of progressive revelation is not new. As Baha'u'llah pointed out in the Kitab-i-Iqan, it can see seen throughout the Bible. However, I do not think that Jews and Christians understood what it meant because if they had, they would have accepted the Messengers that came after their Messenger.

How obvious do you think progressive revelation is to Jews and Christians, Buddhists and Hindus? Muslims probably understand it better than any other religion except Baha'is.

Nonbelievers and deists are in a completely different category from theists. They are not blinded by a religion that they believe is the only truth so they are able to understand concepts such as progressive revelation more objectively.

 

[siti]

Nonbelievers and deists are in a completely different category from theists. They are not blinded by a religion that they believe is the only truth so they are able to understand concepts such as progressive revelation more objectively.

Exactly! They understand it as a part of the natural progressive nature of collective human opinion - and not as divine revelation at all.