Why does the Quran direct Muslims to Bible?

[Dirty Penguin]

The Trinity is scripturally present in the OT,NT, and was copied into the Koran.

The supposed trinity is in neither. The only thing that is evident is your interpretation. I have noticed, however, how the 4 gospel NT writers copied right out of the OT and attributed certain sayings and actions by those from the OT to the biblical Yeshua.

 

[Bowman]

The supposed trinity is in neither. The only thing that is evident is your interpretation. I have noticed, however, how the 4 gospel NT writers copied right out of the OT and attributed certain sayings and actions by those from the OT to the biblical Yeshua.

You don't study scripture...thus, you have a meritless assertion...again...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You don't study scripture...thus, you have a meritless assertion...again...

:biglaugh:..Thanks Bowman. After Turkey Day I needed a good laugh..:clap

 

[Bowman]

:biglaugh:..Thanks Bowman. After Turkey Day I needed a good laugh..:clap

I thought that you were a pizza dude...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I thought that you were a pizza dude...

It all depends the mood I'm in.

 

[J2hapydna]

The God of the Holy Bible is very patient.

His chosen people will hear His word, see it for what it is, comprehend it, and accept it.

Most people will not make it into the Lamb's Book of Life, brother.

This is made abundantly clear in the Book of Revelation in which there is only one Book of Life....contrasted to several judgment books which will hold the names of the majority who do not make it into heaven.

Once you understand this simple concept, you can comprehend why it is that most people are blind to the truth.

This is just the way that it is...

If he had been a worthy patient God, should he not have found a good European family and given this Bible to them, since they are the ones with a history of such affinity to the Trinity, human sacrifices, blood drinking and Sons of Gods etc? Then, if he mentioned the Trinity several times in a European Bible and confirmed it thru Jesus as you claim, the Trinitarian Christianity would make more sense. As you describe him, he seems like an incompetent, trickster more than a patient god. Why worship him, even if he exists in a Trinity? At the very least one should have found an explicit mention of the Trinity in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other Israelite documents, left by other tribes of Israelites, so one could see reasonable proof.

 

[Pegg]

This is made abundantly clear in the Book of Revelation in which there is only one Book of Life....contrasted to several judgment books which will hold the names of the majority who do not make it into heaven.

Once you understand this simple concept, you can comprehend why it is that most people are blind to the truth.

you are right about one thing, the majority will not make it into heaven

what you dont understand is that that it is not Gods intention to have everyone in heaven... the earth is mankinds home, always was and always will be

 

[Pegg]

The Trinity is scripturally present in the OT,NT, and was copied into the Koran.

can you show us some of these OT trinity scriptures?

 

[Bowman]

If he had been a worthy patient God, should he not have found a good European family and given this Bible to them, since they are the ones with a history of such affinity to the Trinity, human sacrifices, blood drinking and Sons of Gods etc? Then, if he mentioned the Trinity several times in a European Bible and confirmed it thru Jesus as you claim, the Trinitarian Christianity would make more sense. As you describe him, he seems like an incompetent, trickster more than a patient god. Why worship him, even if he exists in a Trinity? At the very least one should have found an explicit mention of the Trinity in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other Israelite documents, left by other tribes of Israelites, so one could see reasonable proof.

Those who earnestly seek the Triune God of the Holy Bible will find Him.

You seem to still be consumed with hatred and a very large chip on your shoulder.

Since you frequent religious discourse, tells us that you desperately want someone to convince you that you're wrong.

 

[Bowman]

you are right about one thing, the majority will not make it into heaven

Not even you.

what you dont understand is that that it is not Gods intention to have everyone in heaven...

God does not wish that any should perish...

the earth is mankinds home, always was and always will be

The earth as we know it is temporary and will cease to exist at the end of time.

 

[Bowman]

can you show us some of these OT trinity scriptures?

דשְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָהאֶחָד.

Shama’ Yisra’el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259



יְהוָה= “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212





ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.


אֱלֹהֵינוּ= “Elohim”

“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54






ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.



אֶחָד= “echad”

“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with
“yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 “achad” Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect
(one’s thoughts): - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33





Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us:

• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural

 

[Pegg]

Not even you.

not even me. I have no intention of going to heaven, nor have i been chosen to go to heaven... i am not born again so I will not be going to heaven and Im quite ok with that.

God does not wish that any should perish...

exactly, he wants all to keep their lives. He created human life for a purpose and it wasnt so that he could take us all to heaven.

The earth as we know it is temporary and will cease to exist at the end of time.

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited

Psalm 104:5 "He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever

Eccl 1:4 "A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite"


The earth is not temporary, its not an experiment...its our home and its a masterpiece of Gods physical creation. Why on earth do you think he's going to destroy it?

 

[Bowman]

not even me. I have no intention of going to heaven, nor have i been chosen to go to heaven... i am not born again so I will not be going to heaven and Im quite ok with that.

As long as you deny Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are correct.

exactly, he wants all to keep their lives. He created human life for a purpose and it wasnt so that he could take us all to heaven.

What is His purpose, Pegg...?

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited

Psalm 104:5 "He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever

Eccl 1:4 "A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite"

The term 'olam' does not mean 'forever', Pegg...

The earth is not temporary, its not an experiment...its our home and its a masterpiece of Gods physical creation. Why on earth do you think he's going to destroy it?

The NT states specifically, that there will be a new heavens and a new earth...as the old will no longer exist.

This concept has even been copied into the Koran.

 

[J2hapydna]

Those who earnestly seek the Triune God of the Holy Bible will find Him.

You seem to still be consumed with hatred and a very large chip on your shoulder.

Since you frequent religious discourse, tells us that you desperately want someone to convince you that you're wrong.

I would not call it hatred for the Trinity. I am jsut not that impressed with the evidence for it. It seems more like innuendo. I mean a God who picks the wrong nation, leaves no scriptures or archaeological evidence (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls) from thousands of prophets, stating he exists in a Trinity. Then, has to abruptly choose another non Israelite nation to spread his message, with a pagan history of Sons of Gods. It seems all too convenient. Put yourself in the place of someone Jewish, who has been strictly forbidden from drinking blood, being told his God wants him to drink the blood of his SON! That seems wrong to me. Similarly, he makes suggestions that God does not take the form of things in nature, then shows up in the form of a human. It seems unkosher. Therefore, I dont think you are wrong in believing in the Trinity, as someone who is not the descendant of Jews. However, I could not fault any Jew for rejecting it, after considering the evidence. You are welcome to show me where I am making wrong suppositions.

thanks

 

[Bowman]

I would not call it hatred for the Trinity. I am jsut not that impressed with the evidence for it. It seems more like innuendo. I mean a God who picks the wrong nation, leaves no scriptures or archaeological evidence (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls) from thousands of prophets, stating he exists in a Trinity. Then, has to abruptly choose another non Israelite nation to spread his message, with a pagan history of Sons of Gods. It seems all too convenient. Put yourself in the place of someone Jewish, who has been strictly forbidden from drinking blood, being told his God wants him to drink the blood of his SON! That seems wrong to me. Similarly, he makes suggestions that God does not take the form of things in nature, then shows up in the form of a human. It seems unkosher. Therefore, I dont think you are wrong in believing in the Trinity, as someone who is not the descendant of Jews. However, I could not fault any Jew for rejecting it, after considering the evidence. You are welcome to show me where I am making wrong suppositions.

thanks

We have already provided scriptural evidence for our position.

If you would rather ignore scripture and continue to rant, then why exactly are you even in a 'scriptural' debate forum....?

 

[J2hapydna]

We have already provided scriptural evidence for our position.

If you would rather ignore scripture and continue to rant, then why exactly are you even in a 'scriptural' debate forum....?

I don't think I am ignoring scripture. Perhaps you did not follow my argument. Are you suggesting that the OT states one should drink the blood of a sacrifice? Can you show me where in the OT? Similarly, are you suggesting one can consume the flesh of a human sacrifice to the God of Abraham, according to the OT? If so, then where? However, when we read the NT these images are what we find. This I have suggested, among other things, would be troubling to Jews. I have suggested that these images are all too convenient for non Israelites, to suggest God of Abraham has authored/ permitted, without one wondering the non Israelite origins of such symbolisms and the non Israelite origin of the Roman nation.

 

[Bowman]

I don't think I am ignoring scripture. Perhaps you did not follow my argument. Are you suggesting that the OT states one should drink the blood of a sacrifice? Can you show me where in the OT? Similarly, are you suggesting one can consume the flesh of a human sacrifice to the God of Abraham, according to the OT? If so, then where? However, when we read the NT these images are what we find. This I have suggested, among other things, would be troubling to Jews. I have suggested that these images are all too convenient for non Israelites, to suggest God of Abraham has authored/ permitted, without one wondering the non Israelite origins of such symbolisms and the non Israelite origin of the Roman nation.

Jews already understand the need for blood sacrifice.

 

[J2hapydna]

Jews already understand the need for blood sacrifice.

I am not asking about the need for blood sacrifices. Even Muslims understand that. I am asking you about the need to drink the blood of a sacrifice or consume human flesh. Where are these symoblisms found in the OT, that are so liberally found in the NT?

 

[Pegg]

דשְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ,
יְהוָה= “Yahweh”
“Yahweh” definition:
H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, :rainbow1::rainbow1:
H1961

So for thousands of years God identifies himself in the hebrew scriptures as Jehovah/Yahweh

But later when he appears in person to man, he identifies himself as Jesus and thats his name ever after

And this makes sense because......(?)

אֱלֹהֵינוּ= “Elohim”
“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic.
H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.

The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures (Vol. XXI, July 1905): “Several phenomena in the universe were designated in Hebrew by plural expressions because they inspired the Hebrew mind with the idea of greatness, majesty, grandeur, and holiness.
“Various theories have been advanced to explain the use of the plural form elohim as a designation of the God of Israel. Least plausible is the view of the old theologians, beginning with Peter Lombard (12th century), that we have in the plural form a reference to the Trinity. . . . That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in elohim (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God. It ranks with the plurals adonim [“master”] and baalim [“owner,” “lord”] employed with reference to human beings.”

This argument about the plurality of Elohim is bunk.

אֶחָד= “echad”
“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with
“yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness.

“one” in the Scriptures often means to be one exclusive of others

The same word for one is found at:
Eccl 4:8 "There exists one, but not a second one..."

Song Sololmon 6:9 "One there is who is my dove, my blameless one. One there is who belongs to her mother."

So again you cannot conclusively use this reasoning to support the trinity.

Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us:

• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural

some can see patterns where there are no patterns to see.

 

[Bowman]

I am not asking about the need for blood sacrifices. Even Muslims understand that. I am asking you about the need to drink the blood of a sacrifice or consume human flesh. Where are these symoblisms found in the OT, that are so liberally found in the NT?

In the OT, these things were applied to animal sacrifices - of which could never take away sin, and had to be repeated over, and over...

In the NT, Jesus, as God, is the perfect sacrifice to take away the sin of the world - one sacrifice for eternity.