Why does the Quran direct Muslims to Bible?

[Dirty Penguin]

Nope.

We have already provided an example for you, brother.

However, you fell silent when your lack of knowledge of Greek grammar was exposed...

You've provided no direct quote where the biblical Yeshua said he is "God" in the 1st person brother.....What you have provided was an interpretation.....

As far as exposure...you've done nothing of the sort brother...kudos for the try though...

 

[Bowman]

you've provided no direct quote where the biblical yeshua said he is "god" in the 1st person brother.....what you have provided was an interpretation.....

As far as exposure...you've done nothing of the sort brother...kudos for the try though...

ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

 

[Dirty Penguin]

ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

Ah yes Rev. 21:7.....This is where we disagree. Your belief is that "God" and the Lamb (Yeshua) are one god. I view the ("the one that SITS on the throne") as "God" as described by your scripture and ("the Lamb") "Yeshua" who (STOOD) in the midst of the 24 elders as two completely separate beings just as the creatures in heaven did. 21:7 shows it is in reference to (the one on the throne-"God") and not the Lamb-Yeshua (who stood amongst the 24 elders).

 

[Pegg]

ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."

If Jesus was speaking in this verse, why is he calling these conquerors his 'sons' when everywhere else he calls them his 'brothers'?

Hebrews 2:11 "For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,”

They are not Gods brothers...they are Gods sons. They are brothers of Jesus though as he said many times.

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’

Jesus apostles were his 'brothers'...not his sons. So the verse you are reading is actually God speaking in the first person, not Jesus.

 

[Bowman]

Ah yes Rev. 21:7.....This is where we disagree. Your belief is that "God" and the Lamb (Yeshua) are one god.

The author of Revelation states this, brother.

I view the ("the one that SITS on the throne") as "God" as described by your scripture and ("the Lamb") "Yeshua" who (STOOD) in the midst of the 24 elders as two completely separate beings just as the creatures in heaven did. 21:7 shows it is in reference to (the one on the throne-"God") and not the Lamb-Yeshua (who stood amongst the 24 elders).

Jesus is God upon the Throne, brother.

We have already been through this together

You went silent for a week afterward...

 

[Bowman]

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."

If Jesus was speaking in this verse, why is he calling these conquerors his 'sons' when everywhere else he calls them his 'brothers'?

Hebrews 2:11 "For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,”

They are not Gods brothers...they are Gods sons. They are brothers of Jesus though as he said many times.

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’

Jesus apostles were his 'brothers'...not his sons. So the verse you are reading is actually God speaking in the first person, not Jesus.

Jesus is God.

Even in the NWT.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The author of Revelation states this, brother.

The author of Revelation shows the (one that SITS on the throne - "God") and the one that (STOOD in the midst of the 24 elders) to be separate, brother

Jesus is God upon the Throne, brother.

We have already been through this together

You went silent for a week afterward...

"God" is on the throne and Yeshua (the Lamb) is in the midst of the 24 elders. We've gone over this ad nauseum, brother...

 

[Bowman]

The author of Revelation show the (one that SITS on the throne - "God") and the one that (STOOD in the midst of the 24 elders) to be separate, brother

Separate and yet both God.

The Trinity.

"God" is one the throne and Yeshua (the Lamb) is in the midst of the 24 elders. We've gone over this ad nauseum, brother...

Both are worshiped as the one God.

This was already irrefutably demonstrated in Greek Grammar to you when you went silent a week ago.

Have you already forgotten what you learned?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Separate and yet both God.

The Trinity.

That may be how you interpret it but not me, brother

Both are worshiped as the one God.

This was already irrefutably demonstrated in Greek Grammar to you when you went silent a week ago.

Have you already forgotten what you learned?

Yeshua is said to be worthy of praise and blessings but at the end of chapter 5 "God" was worshiped (using the actual word for worship) but more importantly they are seen as completely separate throughout, brother. There was no need to continue to belabor this point....

 

[Bowman]

That may be how you interpret it but not me, brother

Then you do not understand the Trinity.

Yeshua is said to be worthy of praise and blessings but at the end of chapter 5 "God" was worshiped (using the actual word for worship) but more importantly they are seen as completely separate throughout, brother. There was no need to continue to belabor this point....

You have yet to explain why they are referred to as one with the usage of singular pronouns...

Now...go silent....again.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Then you do not understand the Trinity.

I understand the trinity quite well.....You're repeating yourself again...we gone through this.

You have yet to explain why they are referred to as one with the usage of singular pronouns...

Now...go silent....again.....

They're never seen as one, brother..

 

[Bowman]

I understand the trinity quite well.....You're repeating yourself again...we gone through this.

You don't understand the Trinity.

They're never seen as one, brother..

Talk to the Greek...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Talk to the Greek...

Done...

 

[Pegg]

Jesus is God.

Even in the NWT.

this reply does not support your argument

Can you at least try and use scripture to back up your claim?

 

[Bowman]

this reply does not support your argument

Can you at least try and use scripture to back up your claim?

Speak to the Greek, sister...

 

[newhope101]

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son."

If Jesus was speaking in this verse, why is he calling these conquerors his 'sons' when everywhere else he calls them his 'brothers'?

Hebrews 2:11 "For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,”

They are not Gods brothers...they are Gods sons. They are brothers of Jesus though as he said many times.

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’

Jesus apostles were his 'brothers'...not his sons. So the verse you are reading is actually God speaking in the first person, not Jesus.

I also like Mathew 24:36 that says "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father".

Quite clearly, Jesus(Son) is not the Father(God). This incredible Catholic mystery is a tradition of thinking that to me appears to be outdated and obsolete. There is one passage somewhere that says the "Father and I are one", out of a plethora of examples where they are clearly separate identities. This one and only passage is speaking to Jesus and the Father being of one mind on a point and had been misinterpreted into a mystery. I think Catholics are the only ones that still uphold the trinity, but forgive me if I am wrong.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I also like Mathew 24:36 that says "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father".

Quite clearly, Jesus(Son) is not the Father(God). This incredible Catholic mystery is a tradition of thinking that to me appears to be outdated and obsolete. There is one passage somewhere that says the "Father and I are one", out of a plethora of examples where they are clearly separate identities. This one and only passage is speaking to Jesus and the Father being of one mind on a point and had been misinterpreted into a mystery. I think Catholics are the only ones that still uphold the trinity, but forgive me if I am wrong.

You are correct. There are so many implicit verses where the biblical Yeshua (Jesus) shows he's not "God" and there are plenty of verses where explicitly says he has a god. Even the "ascended" Yeshua, while in heaven, says he has a god 3 or more times in one verse alone. Shucks, back in the book of John Yeshua says he was sent but not by his own will but the will of his god. The trinity hypothesis is obsolete and more and more are questioning it and becoming non-believers in such pagan ideas. But it does make for some really good conversation or debate here at RF.

 

[Bowman]

I also like Mathew 24:36 that says "No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father".

Quite clearly, Jesus(Son) is not the Father(God). This incredible Catholic mystery is a tradition of thinking that to me appears to be outdated and obsolete. There is one passage somewhere that says the "Father and I are one", out of a plethora of examples where they are clearly separate identities. This one and only passage is speaking to Jesus and the Father being of one mind on a point and had been misinterpreted into a mystery.

One God is the obvious intent.

I think Catholics are the only ones that still uphold the trinity, but forgive me if I am wrong.

The Trinity is upheld even by the OT authors.

 

[J2hapydna]

if he came from heaven, existed as a spirit, he is divine.

Angels exist in heaven, they are spirits, they are of divine nature...meaning 'god like'

Jesus was the same as them before he was a man.

I was using the term divine, as in God. However, I agree, in a more general sense, as you are suggesting it, where angels are divine too, then he could be divine, but not God.

regards,

J2

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was using the term divine, as in God. However, I agree, in a more general sense, as you are suggesting it, where angels are divine too, then he could be divine, but not God.

regards,

J2

I have argued this as well that one can be divine but not deity. Trinitarians don't seem to believe that but I guess it's OK...