Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

[Booko]

HIJAAB FOR WOMEN

It is customary to cite your source when your cutting and pasting from elsewhere:

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=65613

 

[Booko]

Some men rape 80 year old women.

I went to middle school with a guy who raped 2 women: 1 was 16, the other 70. I don't think the 70-year old lady was "asking for it" by wandering around in miniskirts.

As for rape rates in parts of the Middle East -- who the heck would know how many there are, when in some places your own bleedin' family will kill you for having *dared* to be a *victim*???

 

[Djamila]

This is simply incorrect - as I know from personal experience. In Western society it is not in the least bit exceptional for women to wear miniskirts. And men do not "tease" women who do. On the other hand, women who walk around in a hijab might well get teased. So in fact, the very opposite of the above statement is true, at least as far as the West is concerned.

This is about much more than just blatant teasing. It's about respect for women, and their high regard in Islamic society.

Bosnian society is largely far worse than your so-called "Western" society, in this regard - normal television commercials here would be considered softcore porn in America.

But wear a veil, and your entire interaction changes. There are some problems, of course, but most of what you'll experience is positive - men holding open the door for you, speaking politely, treating you admirably.

It might well be true that Islam improved the lot of women in Arabia. But that was 1400 years ago, and because of Islam, no further improvement has been possible.

You honestly believe the Arab world is, today, exactly as it was 1,400 years ago? Have you not seen Dubai? Nor Riyadh? Nor Doha? These cities are more modern and impressive than anything in the United States. Dubai must seem like the Jetsons to Americans and Europeans...

I suggest you travel, it would have a profound impact on your worldview.

 

[Booko]

I don't know all the answers on this one I know one of the main ones is if a women has four Husbands how would she or the man know who the father of her child was. I know their are more but one of the Muslims will have to enlighten us.

A little history might be helpful here. The pagan Arabs so devalued women that they would leave their infant girls out to die of exposure.

Allowing men extra wives would surely be preferable to this practice. :cover:

There is a growing strain of thought in Islam today that monogamy is really preferable. The reason is, in the verse that says up to 4 wives are allowed, it also says "if you can treat them fairly." But in a verse in another sura, it says...well really you couldn't treat them fairly. Thus, monogamy would be the ideal.

 

[Djamila]

A little history might be helpful here. The pagan Arabs so devalued women that they would leave their infant girls out to die of exposure.

Allowing men extra wives would surely be preferable to this practice. :cover:

There is a growing strain of thought in Islam today that monogamy is really preferable. The reason is, in the verse that says up to 4 wives are allowed, it also says "if you can treat them fairly." But in a verse in another sura, it says...well really you couldn't treat them fairly. Thus, monogamy would be the ideal.

It wasn't a pagan Arab thing, it was common the world over. Female children came at a high cost - they were not as useful in labor as male children, and they would eventually require a dowry upon marriage.

Those conditions were true from rural Ireland to Japan, and every culture - at some point - did it.

 

[Booko]

I disagree. Hair for women are part of their beauty too, it is their crown, so hair must be covered too. Why do you think there are hair beauty salons for women, but not for men?

My friend, if you think men's hair cannot be a source of attraction for women, all I can say is, I wish more women were in a position to properly speak to you about their view on this.

Oh, and here, men do have the equivalent of beauty salons. Even the men here who come from the Middle East will go to special places for threading, which was the custom in their home country. Apparently men think proper hair care is important as well.

 

[Booko]

I see girls in a lot of American movies wearing a lot less than mini skirts. Even in my own country I see girls wearing skirts which make me think "How will she sit in that?" Of course to people like you Burchfam and even me, such clothes are unacceptable. However, not everyone in society will see it like that. I see young teenage girls dressing like if cloth is scarce and I wonder why their parents let them leave their homes dressed like that.

My daughter wonders that as well. I take that as a sign that we've done a decent job instructing her on issues of modesty. I taught her long ago that certain clothes get men to talk to your body parts and not you, and really if you care about yourself why would you want to do that?

I get really tired of men talking to my cleavage, even when I'm fully covered. I've been known to put my hand under their jaw, gently lift it up until they're looking at my face, and inform them that my cleavage has never yet talked to anybody. Smiling, of course. It's really rather funny. Especially at my age. :biglaugh:

As I said in my previous post, I don't see why women should cover their faces when men don't have to. That to me is unfair. I have seen Muslim men with the cap over their hair (I forget what they call it) though.

It was the custom not that long ago that men wouldn't leave the house without some sort of head covering on. In Persia a century ago, to remove a man's turban was a cause of great shame.

As for the four wives bit, one of my Muslim friends said that Prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) had four or five wives (Can't remember...think it was five), because at that time, women were very dependent on men for survival. He married these women to support them, he didn't do it out of lust.

Actually it was more than that, but it would be more accurate to say that he took women into his household a) to support and protect them and b) to form alliances with other tribes in the area.

Muhammad's first wife, Kadijah, was much older than him when they married, and he didn't take any other wives until after she passed away.

I don't know if that is true, so someone please correct me if that's wrong. I personally think that a man should have one wife and a woman should have one husband.

Given that children are born pretty evenly split between boys and girls, I take that as something of a sign that yeah, monogamy makes more sense. But in an era where circumstances put the gender split out of balance, through wars and whatnot, I can see where polygamy might be allowed. If we're not pretty much over that era in humanity's existence, I think we nearly are.

 

[Booko]

I do not believe thats true, you are saying something that is the opposite. Women wearing revealing clothes are more likely to get teased than women who where modest clothes.

Sorry, what Burchfam says about where she is is just as true here. Women wearing revealing clothes here will not be teased, but there is every possibility that a woman wearing a hijab will. I've not seen it myself, because I only see hijab at our local farmer's market, and the people who would tease such women for being different are also not likely to shop there.

We have a number of women in Atlanta who wear hijab. Most of them are not Arab Muslims, but rather are native-born black women who are Muslim. So if they are teased, it's not because someone is being stupid about someone of Arab descent.

I also disagree with your second statement, a lot of scientific discoveries and advancement has been discovered by Muslim scientists.

The comment, I think, was whether any of that was recent? I'd hardly deny that Islam in its Golden Era didn't give us significant advances in many of the sciences. Heck, the West wouldn't have had its Renaissance unless they had first had contact with the Near East. Our progress is built upon the foundation of yours.

May we get to the point where we can all make progress together on the foundation that we've all built.

 

[jacquie4000]

Allowing men extra wives would surely be preferable to this practice. :cover:

I understand many points of the husbands having more than one wife..my quote was in refferance to a women not being allowed to have 4 husbands maybe i am misunderstanding your point here?

 

[Booko]

Well, Aisha was certainly not a widow when he married her - unless, in her six years of life, she had already managed to accumulate one husband, then lose him, before she married Muhammad. Did Muhammad receive a divine dispensation for marrying children as well?

It's fallacious and unhistorical to assume that because Muhammad took Aisha into his household when she was 9 (not 6) that he was fully married to her in every sense, including consummating the marriage. There were betrothal customs in that part of the world that we do not have, and without some knowledge of those and how they applied in real life, we will always come up with some really twisted idea for what it meant to be "married to a 9 year old."

I have still received no clear answer on the 4 wives rule. I can understand why women should not have more than one husband, but this does not explain why men can have more than one wife. Does this not cause terrible social problems due to a shortage of women for those men at the bottom of the social and economoc hierarchy?

Judgement Day mentioned wars, and that's one reason that applied at the time. Also, there were men too poor to support even one wife, but the women had to be supported all the same.

The problems of those times do not apply to us today. It's a bad idea to take those standards and judge them according to our conditions of life.

And I'd still like to know why women should cover their bodies, but not men.

Well, I've always thought that emphasizing modesty solely for women on the grounds that men can't control themselves rather puts men in a position of calling themselves no better than dogs. :cover:

 

[Booko]

Is this still the case in Muslim society?

It was the case in Western society at the same time, for what it's worth. Life expectancy was very short then.

 

[lunamoth]

Judgement Day mentioned wars, and that's one reason that applied at the time. Also, there were men too poor to support even one wife, but the women had to be supported all the same.

You've made many good points on this topic Booko, but posts like the one below from the Polyandry thread still leave me scratching my head (or actually, :banghead3 ).

The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:

1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.

2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.

3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.

4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Because they are afraid of female sexuality, a trait that is shared by most male dominated religions, I don't think there is much more than that.

I'd say more so, it revolves around their own reactions to female sexuality, therefore they are punishing women for their own "perverse" thoughts instead of owning it themsleves. Rapists often blame the victim saying they deserved or asked for it, in Islamic countries there are "honor" killings of women that have been raped by family members- and some wonder why we think they are a medieval backwards people and or religion.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.

I've always loved this one...where do these mysterious STD's come from if no-one is having extra marital sex? Do they just miraculously appear out of nowhere because a woman has more than one husband? :sarcastic
It amazes me that people can use patently untrue tripe like this as an argument and actually believe it.

 

[Booko]

Then this is something that sets Muslim society apart from the West, because in the West such a practice would be regarded as paedophilia.

There are States in the U.S. that allow marriage as early as 13.

http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

 

[Booko]

You honestly believe the Arab world is, today, exactly as it was 1,400 years ago? Have you not seen Dubai? Nor Riyadh? Nor Doha? These cities are more modern and impressive than anything in the United States. Dubai must seem like the Jetsons to Americans and Europeans...

I suggest you travel, it would have a profound impact on your worldview.

I have (Baha'i) friends here in Atlanta who will be moving to Dubai in the next couple of months. His business takes him to Saudi Arabia very often, and while it is not possible for them to live there, on account of religion, it is no problem in Dubai, and there is an active Baha'i community there. My friends have been to Dubai many many times, and they have described it as "paradise" -- and they weren't just talking about the climate.

 

[Booko]

You've made many good points on this topic Booko, but posts like the one below from the Polyandry thread still leave me scratching my head (or actually, :banghead3 ).

I haven't read the Polyandry thread at all. All I "know" on the subject is there's one small place in Asia where it's practiced, and the rest of humanity has never seemed to find a way to make it work.

My personal take on that is that men seem to be more naturally competitive, while women are more naturally cooperative.

That may be enough to put us humans off of polyandry right there, without getting into any religious arguments or discussions about inheritance.

Oops, I think we're about to derail a thread again! :cover:

 

[ayani]

actually guys, i wear a veil of my own choice.

it has nothing to do with sex. it is a way of keeping me mindful of God's Word. it is a symbol of my personal respect for God, my commitment to be in rememberance of Him always (as opposed to taking off the veil again when i leave a house of worship), and a reminder to be righteous in all things.

it also keeps my head and neck warm from the wind, happily.

 

[lunamoth]

I haven't read the Polyandry thread at all. All I "know" on the subject is there's one small place in Asia where it's practiced, and the rest of humanity has never seemed to find a way to make it work.

My personal take on that is that men seem to be more naturally competitive, while women are more naturally cooperative.

That may be enough to put us humans off of polyandry right there, without getting into any religious arguments or discussions about inheritance.

Oops, I think we're about to derail a thread again! :cover:

Yes, another thread derailment brought to you by lunamoth. :sorry1: And here I'd made a New Year's resolution and everything!

I can see biological as well as sociological reasons for why polyandry does not work well with humans. A man can impregnate many women and it takes nine months of gestation plus perhaps several more months to launch a successful progeny...thus the stronger males who can dominate resources and other males will be more reproductively successful.

As for the thing about mitagating for the loss of males in battle or whatever...I guess I'd like to see the data. I think it is basically a social preference for males and a male dominance thing, rather than having the good of baby girls in mind.

Whatever the actual reasons, polygyny is part of some societies and polyandry much less so. But to use this observation to justify an incredibly demeaning and degrading judgment on women's sexuality, is inexcusable. And you are right, this is not even getting at all into any religious or moral reasoning. I believe Fluffy has started a thread on this, so we can take any further discussion of this there.

peace,
luna

 

[Hema]

I get really tired of men talking to my cleavage, even when I'm fully covered. I've been known to put my hand under their jaw, gently lift it up until they're looking at my face, and inform them that my cleavage has never yet talked to anybody. Smiling, of course. It's really rather funny. Especially at my age. :biglaugh:

That's a really good one. They must have died of shame. Good for them! I might try that sometime however I don't think I have the balls to smile and do that. I might be like "yuck, I'm touching this pervert's face".