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Why does christianity consider Jesus(pbuh) as God?

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Yes. The Quran was compiled within 20 years of the death of Muhammed and has not changed since. There have been no deletions of chapters, reductions of chapters, or changes to the original Arabic text. Versus the Bible, which has gone through numerous revisions throughout its existence.

One problem facing Islam is the collected traditions of Muhammed, called Hadith. The Hadith were compiled over a long period of time and having varying levels of authenticity, and throughout the centuries there have been debates over which Hadith are true and which are not. Some believe the Hadith are required to be followed. Others, like me, believe they're guidelines. The Quran is the only book of God.
The recision of Uthman was in the final years of his caliphate.
"
One of Uthman's actions, controversial at the time, is now the act for which he is remembered. He headed a committee that established the basic text of the Qur'an. Various Muslim centers, like Kufa and Damascus, had begun to develop their own traditions for reciting and writing down the Qur'an. Uthman feared that the nascent Islamic empire would fall apart in religious controversy if it did not have a sacred text recognized by everyone. Sometime during the end of his reign, the committee produced a text. Uthman had it copied and sent copies to each of the Muslim cities and garrison towns, commanding that variant versions of the Qur'an be destroyed, and only his version used. Many devout believers believed that his actions were high-handed and accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book.

(Note that John Wansbrough and some Western historians believe that the Qur'an was completed later than Uthman's time; theirs is a minority opinion. See the article on the Qur'an.)"

That there was need of a standard text can hardly be denied, yet many believe that the standard text left out as many as 345 verses of the Qur'an as it was known by many. The fact is that a pre-recision Qur'an was actually discovered in an old mosque in Yemen in which there are many discrepancies between the Uthman recision and the older document.

From http://www.muslims.ws/win/quran/third_and_final_compilation.htm: "Though there was difference of language but there was no change in the real meaning of Quran. In Bokhari Muslim and Mishkat Hazrat Ibne Shahab a famous follower of the companion of Prophet narrates that I have heard this news that all these seven languages were one in the religion and commandments. There was no difference regarding lawful and unlawful things among all. Some time temporary change from one word to another word giving same meaning was allowed to make the recitation easy. Allama Qastalani says that every one was not allowed freely to exchange the word from another word. It depended upon the hearing from the Prophet. It was a temporary phaze to make the recitation easy but when facility for scribing and learning Quran by heart became available now there was no excuse then the exchange y of words were disallowed. During the period of Hazrat Uthman consensus of the companions was arrived on that recitation which was adopted by the Prophet in the last recitation in the month of Ramazan, then leave for changing words was stopped.
Most of the learned men opine that one recitation was finalized during the life time of the Prophet after rehearsing Quran from Hazrat Jibraeel for the second time in the same month of Ramazan in which the Prophet recited Quran with Jibraeel two times. Some persons say that one recitation was decided during the period of Hazrat Uthman. However it is proved by many traditions of the Prophet and sayings of research scholars that recitation of Quran according to a language other than the language of Quraish was only a temporary leave due to some hardships, condition and some necessary reasons."


It is an article of faith under modern doctrine of Islam that the recision is the pure and accurate text, indeed. Butg to an outsider there is reason to wonder. The fragments were discovered in 1979 and examined and photocopied by European scholars.
"Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

The mainly secular effort to reinterpret the Koran -- in part based on textual evidence such as that provided by the Yemeni fragments -- is disturbing and offensive to many Muslims, just as attempts to reinterpret the Bible and the life of Jesus are disturbing and offensive to many conservative Christians. Nevertheless, there are scholars, Muslims among them, who feel that such an effort, which amounts essentially to placing the Koran in history, will provide fuel for an Islamic revival of sorts -- a reappropriation of tradition, a going forward by looking back. Thus far confined to scholarly argument, this sort of thinking can be nonetheless very powerful and -- as the histories of the Renaissance and the Reformation demonstrate -- can lead to major social change. The Koran, after all, is currently the world's most ideologically influential text." http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html

The efforts of the Muslim world to adapt to consideration of the Qur'an as literary and historical may cause some extreme distress, but I think in the long run dealing with the issue constructively will be of great benefit to Islam and the rest of the world.
Regards,
Scott
 

Anastasios

Member
nutshell said:
Not all of Christianity believes in the trinity. I don't.

Further, the Old Testament represents the lower law or Law of Moses. Christ did bring the new and higher law. It's unfortunate you don't recognize that.
So where is it in Dead Sea Scrolls? (which are earliest bible scriptures). Even present time, please show me where the new Law of Jesus (pbuh) is. The Gospels were accepted as sacred texts in 4th century AD, but still they are not authentich sacred texts. They were just selected amongst the hundreds of Gospels. There is only two law books in this world which were sent by God through prophets, Torah and Quran. The euangelion which was sent to jesus was not a law, but a reformation instructions for the usage of Torah. And the difference between Torah and Quran is that Torah, though it has direct words from the mouth of God, is mostly commented by Moses and other prophets, while Quran is only the word of God, bu not that of Muhammad (pbuh). It has no even a single word of any other third person including the Holy Prophet of Islam. Quran is also last, perfect, complete and secure (promised by Allah himself in Quran) Law, as Allah confirmed.

So I am seriously asking, where is the new law of Jesus (pbuh), which is decribed as a higher Law by you?:sarcastic

(In another time perhaps I can also talk about Muhammad (pbuh) in Bible!!!;) )

Regards.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Popeyesays said:
I believe God had His hand on the process as well. But the process did not begin with Christ it began with Adam. Salvation is God's to grant. Jesus taught that whoever believed should find salvation, but He never said He was the source of that salvation - rather His teachings were the source of salvation - since He taught that God aves, then the circle of revelation is pretty complete.

Regards,
Scott
The Bible teaches that the ONLY way to the Father is through the son. Belief in Christ's sacrifice is the way to the Father.

And remember, I AM a Christian. I fully embrace the NT of the Bible. My Christ and God are one.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
SecondBoy said:
I don't understand "three person and one god " three isn't equal one
if three person are God then there are three Gods not one.
and if Jesus is God why shouldn't you worship(adore) him?if he isn't the same God?
yes God that you know him as Father?
Think of a triangle...

I DO worship and adore Christ...with all my heart. When I pray...I pray in the name of Jesus Christ.
 

KOG

New Member
When Jesus says that he and the Father are one, he means that they are one in purpose. Not one in substance. Man and wife are also reffered to as one in the Bible. Does that mean that they are the same person? No they are one in purpose. "One" in both of these instances is figurative. NOT literal.
 

KOG

New Member
No one in the Bible prays to the Holy spirit. If it is the "third person of the trinity" don't you think its feeling a bit left out?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
SecondBoy said:
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]Why does christianity consider Jesus(pbuh) as God?
if Jesus was (is) a human like us?
are christians monotheist while they believe in three Gods?
is there more than one God for christians?
what does Jesus do that he is God or like God?
please don't say that 3=1 this statement dosn't justify a wise guy.
thank you.
[/font]

I'm going to approach answering your question from a different perspective. Admittedly, you've gotten a lot of answers, and we won't all say the same things (too many groups have broken away, and with each evolution, they get a little more different). Rather than quote a bunch of Scriptures, I'll give you the why and give Scripture on any point if you require it.

In Orthodox Christianity, man was created innocent, but not perfect. Adam was in need of maturity, and so God tested him. This was necessary, because Adam was designed to be a being similar to God, but one with a material body. He was to ascend up and become higher than angels. For his part, however, Adam sinned and his mind was darkened. His thoughts and energies turned to himself.

At that point, man became more animalish than divine (St. Seraphim, after having an intimate experience with God weeped over that very point). In making the choice he did, he surrendered all his rights and priveledges to the Adversary. His spirit died then, and his material body inevitably followed suite. Corruption caught him, and he died.

When Adam had children, he had to have them like him. The race doesn't start from nothing again. Rather, each one of us bear the likeness of our parents. Adam, therefore, passed on this broken image of God that he had, and his children inherited the disease. They, in their turn, succumbed and died, and all humanity has done so ever since.

Now there was no way for us to fix this problem. God had expelled Adam out of mercy: had God allowed him into His unadulterated presence, Adam would have experienced God as Hell, so God was working out his salvation (living forever in that condition would be a curse indeed). Since we could not experience God the way we should anymore, we grew to fear Him and cower before Him, or we doubt Him and deny Him, or any number of other things. What we cannot do, however, is change what we are. We cannot become divine, draw down God's nature to us, or any other such thing. We are creatures, and He, alone, is God.

The answer lay in Christ. In Him, God came down as a man and assumed human form. When He assumed our flesh, He healed it. Disease could never take Him, because He purified the corruption. Ultimately, He faced humiliation and murder. When He died that way, He took the full impact of the corruption Adam had inherited and purified it. When He arose from the grave, He trampled down death.

Only God could make humans divine, and only God could restore to us what was lost, so Christ had to become man. No angel or man could accomplish the task. I know that the above is probably confusing. It's much too short and only explains parts of the atonement, but it gets the basic logic down: God became man so that men might become one with God, might share in His life.

This is why we believe what we believe on the Incarnation (well, part of it). As for the Trinity, we believe God has revealed Himself in three persons. I don't understand it, and I don't pretend to. However, if the closest analogy we can have for God is love, then it must always be others centered. God was still God when there was no universe (hence three persons). We do believe in one God, not three. The first article of the Creed is "I believe in one God." The Trinity, though, is simply a mystery (and wouldn't God really be incomprehensible? The universe is, and He is greater than it).

I believe that should just about get it, and if it doesn't, the post is too long anyway :D.
 

shema

Active Member
Well to sum it all up. God is one spirit. whether it be God-father, God-son, or God-Holy spirit. Now I believe that there are many gods on this earth and outside this earth, but there is only one true and living God. Jesus was an incarnation of that spirit sent to make right what Adam made wrong. Jesus had to eat and walk as a man because it was man who passed down our sinful nature, and before christ, the wages of sin was death. So to clean up Adams mess It must be man who died to collect his wages. So thats why we cosider Jesus to be God.
 

shema

Active Member
now as for the torah, nt, and Quran, why is it that both Torah, and NT, were written by many authors inspired by God. So can it be assumed that amongst two or three a thing is established, than why was the last book written by one man. and how come the Quran says to believe the torah and NT? because to believe both previous books is to believe that there would be no need for a new revelation. And how can Mohummed be the last prophet, when there are plenty of prophets in the Christian church today. There are plenty of people who can touch others and heal them through Christ. There are plenty of Christians who have messages to other people from God. So how could one person claim to be the last. and who else can account for this new revelation that was there at the time, and how come they had'nt written any books to complete the Qoran?
 
KOG said:
When Jesus says that he and the Father are one, he means that they are one in purpose. Not one in substance. Man and wife are also reffered to as one in the Bible. Does that mean that they are the same person? No they are one in purpose. "One" in both of these instances is figurative. NOT literal.
I understand, but who decides what the Bible conveys as figurative and what conveys as literal? Many Christians believe that Earth was literally created in six days, but do not take other teachings literally, such as your example above.
Respectfully,
II-A
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
I understand, but who decides what the Bible conveys as figurative and what conveys as literal? Many Christians believe that Earth was literally created in six days, but do not take other teachings literally, such as your example above.
Respectfully,
II-A
Figurative (metaphoric) material also exists in the Qur'an, does it not? How is a muslim to determine what is literal and what is metaphoric? The same way a Christian determines the issue - by reading, studying and comprehending.

"There appear, however, to be some difficulties. Not least of which has to do with the fact that Quran was revealed at a certain point in time. Since then we have traveled a long way, made gigantic leaps in technological know-how, and seen considerable social changes take place in human society. Moreover, most of the followers of the Quran today do not know Arabic, and many who do have little idea of the 'living' language of the Quran.
They cannot be expected to absorbs its idioms and metaphor, so essential to exploring and absorbing the depths of the Quranic meaning. Yet its guidance, by its own claim, has an eternal relevance for all people, being the word of the Eternal God. For the truth of its claim, it seems to me, it must be possible for us to receive, experience, and understand the Quran as it's first recipients did, at least in some measure and to some degree. We seem to almost have a right to this possibility of receiving God's guidance in its fullness and with all its riches and joys." http://www.islam101.com/quran/waytoquran.html

"This is not one of the difficult verses of the Qur'an and the commentators, too, have not found much difficulty in explaining its general import. However, as will be shortly seen, they have failed to note certain fine points surrounding the metaphor and so have given a clouded picture of its clear imagery, a picture which is devoid of logical coherence and which cannot stand the test of scrutiny. Why did that happen? That was because they have taken three words that occur in the verse in their most general sense possible, being oblivious to their usage in the Arabic literary tradition as well as to the criteria of conformance to a given context." http://www.quran.org.uk/?Page=links&CatID=9

Metaphor enriches - the Creation story of the Torah is a metaphor. That some demand it to be literal is not a reflection upon the Torah, but on the lack of understanding of those particular readers.

Regards,
Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
Metaphor enriches - the Creation story of the Torah is a metaphor. That some demand it to be literal is not a reflection upon the Torah, but on the lack of understanding of those particular readers.

Regards,
Scott
Excellent perspective. I wish more literalists (whichever book they read) had this level of understanding.
 

shema

Active Member
I Believe that God Decides what the Bible conveys as figurative and what conveys as literal. God's word is figurative and literal. it is very well rounded. It is full in meaning, designed to not only be heard but to be acted out. God imparted a seed on man through his word figuaratively (by way of our hearts) and literally (by way of Mary) The Scriptures were divinely designed for understanding obedience. Many Christians do believe that the earth was created in six days. However, I believe that God has a different concept of time from humans.
....................................................................................................................
If each day were years like 'one thousand' for each, then when God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone..." (Genesis 2:18, He actually had Adam to live alone for almost a whole day, which he stated was not a good thing. (this means he was alone many times longer than mans full life spans today). He was then put to sleep but for how long? Months, years? Or really barely a day.
http://www.letusreason.org/current7.htm
 

shema

Active Member
I apolgize, The thought I meant to convey was "during the time that the Quran was written, were there any other people with written accounts that accompanied the text in the Quran?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
shema said:
I apolgize, The thought I meant to convey was "during the time that the Quran was written, were there any other people with written accounts that accompanied the text in the Quran?
The Qur'an was recited by Muhammad to people who made it their task to memorize faithfully that which was said. There were a number of these individuals, companions with Muhammad. The Surahs were also written on whatever might be available as they were compared with all the reciters to see what errors might have crept in - usually leaves and hides and the scapular bones of camels were also quite useful for recording things.
At the death of Muhammad, those companions wrote down the Qur'an and twenty years later the living companions were allowed to compare their memories and a final recision of the Qur'an was written.

The companions also recorded their memories of the words of Muhammad in day to day life. These are called Hadiths.

Regards,
Scott
 

shema

Active Member
So if it were possible for errors to creep in, is it ok too assume that this book was not ispired by God. If twenty years later his companions were allowed to write the hadiths, then how come they were not just added to the Quran? peace be unto you
 
shema said:
I apolgize, The thought I meant to convey was "during the time that the Quran was written, were there any other people with written accounts that accompanied the text in the Quran?
Ah yes, thank you for the clarification. Popeyesays is correct, but I also want to stress how important oral tradition was in the Levantine and Arabian areas during the Greek era through the late Middle Ages. It's difficult for us in our modern worlds to understand how works as long as the Quran can be memorized, but it's in fact, true. People still do it today, beginning when they are children. Similarly, early Greek works were also memorized. Homer's Odyssey survived for something like 1000 years before being recorded.

The relevance here is that with memorization, people can compare, and weed out any discrepancies. Plus, with certain Surahs being recorded on various instruments of the time - bones, leaves, etc., they were able to piece together an arguably faithful version of the recitations by Muhammed, surviving in an unaltered form since the late 600s.
 
shema said:
So if it were possible for errors to creep in, is it ok too assume that this book was not ispired by God. If twenty years later his companions were allowed to write the hadiths, then how come they were not just added to the Quran? peace be unto you
Excellent question.

Yes, as human intervention was involved, errors did creep in. The Hadith underwent decades of debate as to which were valid and which were not. People continue to debate today of the validity of certain hadiths.

The important point, however, is that only the Quran is taken as the Word of God. The Hadith are simply Muhammed's traditions.
 

Karl R

Active Member
Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Quoting the Bible provides a self-fulfilling truth to any question given in contest to Christianity. It's not enough to simply believe. One must seek truth, not merely accept it.
This is not a case of circular logic, however. Secondboy is not asking christians to prove to him that Jesus is god. He's asking how christians rationalize it to themselves. In addition, that was how your first post in this thread was phrased.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, a messenger from god. He came to teach people about god, and he performed miracles.

As christians, we believe that the gospels in the bible are true. In those gospels, Jesus explicitly states that he is the god of Abraham (see the quotes above). There is no way that god would allow a prophet to falsely state this (and live). Therefore, Jesus must be god.

It's my understanding that Islam has its own version of the gospel. In it, Jesus does not claim to be god. Muslim's feel that the christian gospel is in error. Therefore, they conclude that Jesus is not god.

Both are reasonable conclusions, depending on which gospel you assume is true.

Ibrahim Al-Amin said:
Linguistically, it is not possible that the words written 1900 years ago (NT) have the same meaning as words read today, ... If you believe it at all possible that there could be the slightest error in translation or interpretation, then you have to question basic tenets of the faith.
I agree that the meaning of the language has changed. It's particularly difficult to identify metaphors that were common to that time and culture, and meaningless in ours.

But you seem to be assuming that christians don't address these issues regularly. It's not part of the religious education for children, but it's quite common on the adult level.

And most adult christians have been through several crises of faith where we've wrestled with this or other difficult issues. I seem to have a new crisis of faith every 2-4 years. While some christians view these as a spiritual weakness, I've come to view them as the way my faith is strengthened (and I'm not alone in this opinion).
 
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