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Why does christianity consider Jesus(pbuh) as God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SecondBoy, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Can you apply the same standard to the Qur'an?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    This isn't necessary for someone who SPIRITUALLY and mentally accepts the Bible to be the infallible word of God. I have no issues with the Bible. There is no reason for me to question it's validity. So, for some of us...there's no need to scrutinize the Bible's authorship.
     
  3. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    The way in which we approach the Bible and worship has changed. Our views on God and Christianity has changed.

    But last I checked...our God is the very same TODAY as he was YESTERDAY and will be ALWAYS. And for this reason, I choose not to dissect and discount his Word.
     
  4. SecondBoy

    SecondBoy Member

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    I think our(especially your)imaginatio of God isn't true.
    God is free from want.he need nothing and no one.
    if a man is(was) born then he need father and he isn't free from want, he isn't God
     
  5. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    I am really wondering about the logic of this belief. I would be happy if someone answers those questions.
    1. If Jesus was God, why did he repeatedly emphasize the importance of the unity of God? For example:
      (a) Hear O Israel the first commandment is that Thy God is One and there is none other than He (Mark 12:28, 32, Matthew 22:34-40)
      (b) I can do nothing on my authority, as I hear, I judge and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. (John 5:30, 31)
    2. The Old Testament prophesied the coming of a 'Messiah'. This Messiah was never conceived as a divine figure. How did a prophetic figure become converted into a divine being?
    3. If Jesus was claiming divinity, why did he place himself on an equal footing with everyone else? My Father and your Father, My God and your God. (John 20:27)
    4. If Jesus was God, why did he forbid the reference of divinity to himself: Why call me good? Only God is good. (Matthew 19:16-17)
    5. If Jesus was claiming divinity, why did he liken himself to the Judges and Prophets of the Old Testament who had also been called gods, but in a metaphorical sense? (John 10:34-36, Psalms 82:6). If Jesus was applying the term 'Son of God' in a literal sense, why would he give this reference from the Old Testament which was clearly referring to people as sons in a metaphorical sense?
    6. Why should Jesus say he could do nothing of his own authority, if he was God? (John 5:30)
    7. If Jesus was God, why did he not know who had touched him? (Mark 5:30)
    8. If Jesus was God, why did he not know what was going to happen on the Day of Judgment? But of that day or that Hour no one knows, not even the Angels in Heaven, not the Son but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)
    9. If Jesus was God, why would he say that he was sent by God? (John 6:29)
    10. If Jesus was God, what need did he have to pray? (Mark 1:35, Luke 5:16)
    11. If Jesus was God, why would he curse a fig tree when it had no fruit on it particularly as it was not the season for its bearing fruit? (Mark 11:12-14, Matthew 21:18-19)
    12. When Zebedee asked that his two sons might sit on the right and left of Jesus, why did Jesus say that the power was not with him but only with God? (Matthew 20:23)
    13. If Jesus was divine, why did he clearly refer to himself as a man (John 8:39-40) and separate himself from God in describing the relationship 'The only true God and Jesus Christ' (John 17:3)?
    14. If Jesus was God and therefore omniscient, why did he allow himself to be tricked by Judas?
    15. If Jesus was God, why did he die on the cross in a matter of a few hours when ordinary mortals usually lasted several days? If Jesus was weakened by bearing the sins of the whole world, why should he say that he was able to redeem the sins of the world?
    16. Jesus is reported to have said: He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me (Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16, John 12:44). Who sent Jesus if he himself was God?
    17. -If Jesus was God and Jesus was dead for three days, does that mean also that God (heaven forbid) was also dead for three days?
    18. If Jesus meant that he was literally the son of God, why should he confuse the issue by frequently referring to himself as The Son of Man a term from the Old Testament which did not imply divinity since the Son of Man (as understood in the Old Testament) was never a divine being?
    19. If the Trinity existed since the beginning of time, were the Jews misled by all the prophets before Jesus in being told to believe in the Unity of God? If the Jews were not spiritually advanced to understand the complex concept of the Trinity, does that apply to the prophets also?
    20. If Jesus was God, why did he die on the cross in a matter of a few hours when ordinary mortals usually lasted several days? If Jesus was weakened by bearing the sins of the whole world, why should he say that he was able to redeem the sins of the world?
     
  6. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Was this directed at me?

    I would disagree with your second comment. We were placed on this earth to serve Him. After all we're HIS creation, not vice versa.

    I know who Jesus Christ is.
     
  7. KOG

    KOG New Member

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    Jesus did not think he was God. Why should we? The Trinity did not have any place in any Christian doctrine till Gnosticism fully infiltrated the orthodox church at the council of Nicea. It is the biggest lie in Christianity. This turns Christianity into a polytheistic religion. The shema (Deut 6:4) "Here O Israel, the LORD our God the LORD is One" does not just apply to Jews. This is a central doctrine in Christianity. God is one! Mainstream Christianity is far from what the Christianity of the New Testament is.
     
  8. KOG

    KOG New Member

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    Malachi 3:6 "...The LORD does not change"!
     
  9. KOG

    KOG New Member

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    Very well put. Its a fact that bible translators have changed words to try and make the trinity more biblical. I find it amusing how most Muslim's know more about the bible than a lot of Christians today do. While I dont agree with you on a lot of issues. You have the one God thing down and I admire that.
     
  10. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

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    Genesis 6:7 (New International Version)


    7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."
     
  11. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Logic? You probably will never find much logic to Christianity unless it's a spiritual path you're choosing to follow. Living a Christian life requires FAITH. And if you've already closed yourself off to Christ...I don't think it matters what is posted here...you're not going to understand because you don't want to understand.

    "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me." John 10:26-27 (NKJV)



    Christ's purpose on earth was not only to be the ultimate atonement for our sins but to SHOW us how to live...to SHOW US what type of relationship we should have with our Heavenly Father. Christ accomplished his works through God the Father IN HIM. In John 5:30...Jesus says..."I seek not my own but the will of Him who sent me." He's illustrating to US how we should live our lives...living our lives by not our own will but the will of our Father.
    Please reference scripture.

    "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given: and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God." Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV)

    Because in Flesh...He was flesh and bone just like you and I. And in the flesh, part of His purpose was to show US how to live...how to worship...in the FLESH...God WAS His Father.

    "I and My Father are one." John 10:30 (NKJV)

    Take a look at the context of the text where those scriptures are pulled from. In verses 16-22...Jesus is counseling a very rich and spoiled young ruler who is asking how he can be saved. Jesus humbles himself before this young man for a reason. And Jesus ultimately tells him that he needs to humble himself...and give his riches to the poor. The young man, unwilling to do so...went away from Jesus. Besides, Christ is in the Flesh. It's appropriate for Christ not to refer to Himself as God.

    Take a closer look at context...I'm taking this from the NCV...

    The Jews are trying to stone Jesus here.

    Jesus answered, "It is written in your law that God said, "I said you are god." This Scripture called those people gods who received God's message, and Scripture is always ture. So why do you say that I speak agsint God because I said, "I am God's Son?" I am the one God chose and sent into the world. if I don't do what my Father does, then don't believe me. But if I do what my Father does, even though you don't believe in me, believe what I do. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." John 10:34-38 (NCV)

    I've answered this.

    How do you know that he didn't know who touched him? Obviously...he wanted to TALK to her. And he KNEW that she was healed.

    "And Jesus immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said "Who touched my clothes?" Mark 5:30 (NKJV)

    If Jesus was God, why did he not know what was going to happen on the Day of Judgment? But of that day or that Hour no one knows, not even the Angels in Heaven, not the Son but only the Father. (Mark 13:32)

    Trinity...three SEPARATE manifestations of God. Only God the Father knows the answer to this one. Doesn't discount that the three separate manifestations are of ONE God.

    Because He was sent by God. In FLESH...He was very much human...flesh and bone.
    In FLESH...He was human. He was showing US how to pray.

    You're reading out of context again.

    I've answered this.

    Because in the FLESH...He was a MAN.

    Because God had His hand on the events that unfolded. Remember who CHRIST IS! He was SENT to be the ultimate atonement for our sins.

    See answer for the prior question.

    I've answered this.

    This has been answered.
    Until his death and resurrection...His purpose was to show us how to live, according to God's plan.
     
  12. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Thank you very much for the answers, you seem really worked on the questions, But all I see from your answer is that Jesus is just a man. Most of them is based on some dogmatic beliefs. You don't really seem to have thought open minded. That is why the answers are not really satisfactory, though some of them are enough till some point. For example I cannot see a reason to belive that he was sent to atone our sins. Limited punishment for unlimited sin!!!! And what will be than? if you believe in this, you will need more prophets to atone the sins of later generations. This is nonsense. I agree that Jesus was sent to show how to be close to God, but by applying Old Testament, we know that he was a pure Jew. Anyway.

    "There are many other problems with the Christian understanding of Jesus, his nature and his relationship with God. From further critical and analytical study of Christian doctrine, what emerges is that there is a ‘Son of God’, who possesses the characteristics of a perfect man and also that of a perfect god. However, remember that even according to the Christian doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’. The Father God, is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

    It should be realised that these characteristics are not transferable. There are characters in certain substances which are transferable. For instance, water can become snow and also vapour, without causing a change in the substance or composition of water. But the sort of differences in the characteristics of God and Christ, where certain characteristics are added to one of them, are irreconcilable. It is not possible for one of them to go through this transformation and still remain indistinguishable from the other. That, again, is a problem and a serious one for that matter, whether Jesus Christ was a perfect god as well as a perfect man. If he was, then he was surely different from the Father who was never a perfect man; not even an imperfect one. What type of relationship was this? Was the ‘Son’ greater than the Father? If this additional character did not make the ‘Son’ greater then it must have been a defect. In that case a defective ‘Son God’ is not only against the claims of Christianity, but is also against the universal understanding of God. How, therefore, could anyone comprehend the paradoxical tenet of Christianity which would have us believe that ‘One in Three’ and ‘Three in One’ are the same thing, with no difference at all. This can only happen when the very foundation of a belief is raised, not on a factual base, but merely on myth.

    Yet another problem to be resolved is this: If Jesus became the ‘Son of God’ as a consequence of his birth from Mary’s womb, then what was his position before that? If he was eternally the ‘Son’, without having been born of Mary, why was it necessary to give birth to him in a human form? If it was necessary, then the quality of Son was not eternal; it only became an added characteristic after he was given birth and it disappeared when he rejected the body and returned to heaven. So there are many complexities rising out of a belief which common sense rejects. I invite you again to accept a far more respectable and realistic scenario; that of believing the birth of Jesus Christ to be a special creation brought about by God, having activated some hidden laws of nature. Jesus was the metaphorical son of God, loved by Him in a special way; but a human being all the same. His ‘Son’ status was attached to his character some three hundred years later, to allow his legend to live on."

    Regards.
     
  13. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    As I said before...you probably won't understand.

    I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God and believe very much that Jesus Christ was sent to atone for my sins. He is my Saviour.

    And I don't struggle AT ALL with understanding that God loved us so much he came to Earth to SHOW us how to live for Him. But in FLESH...Christ was a man...in DEATH...Christ IS, WAS and Always Will Be...God.

    Trinity...THREE SEPARATE manifestations of God...

    Father + Son + Holy Spirit = God
     
  14. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Jesus Christ was beaten to a bloody pulp and was then nailed to a cross...taking on the sins of the world. By HIS stripes we are healed. By his suffering...we are saved. And all we have to do is believe in him...pick up our own cross and follow Him.

    I ask this respectfully...what did YOUR prophet do for you?
     
  15. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    You just believe but you don't understand what you believe. Because, you just want to believe in it.
    What I want is not just to believe blindly.
    What I want is to understand what I believe. This is very normal.
    If you don't do that, all belive is in vain, since you can never catch the real divine message.

    Regards.
     
  16. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    Our prophet stopped Mecca from being the most sin filled place in the world, and he took it away from some very powerful people. If I try to compare what Mohammed did, I think of what Moses did to the Pharoah... although Mohammed didn't split the sea or anything, they both took a very lost part of the world and made it straight. Not only did he do that, but he revealed the Quran and confirmed the messages that came before him. He also sprouted the fastest growing religion in the world. I'm sorry that it upsets you that I have a hard time following a book that was written years and years after the death of Jesus. I dont doubt Jesus, I doubt that he was a prophet of God, and I don't doubt his return, but I do doubt his divinity. How can you possibly think that Jesus is God? Especially conisdering what happened to him (in your eyes). Your telling me that God aloud man to beat him, and torture him? I find that to be an insult to God... in so many ways.

    Peace and Blessings
    Ezzedean Fadel
     
  17. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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    Many things. But main thing is that he has been a very important figure between God and Humanity, by bringing the most holy book Quran, the last perfected law book of God, as the greatest prophet (in point of law bringing). No religion has a book like that.
    I am sure you don't have any idea about him, as many Christians in this world. I am an academic in Oxford, an expert of ancient greek (that means, I can read Gospels in original language) and I talked to people, I could hardly find a person who read Quran. Can you imagine that!!!! A lot people is very eager to talk about islam and its prophet without any knowledge. If you feel ready and away from prejudices, I can suggest some readings if you like. And please calm down, that I am realist and rationalist person shouldn't make you tense.

    Regards.
     
  18. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

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    The devine message. What I pleasant god he is. Funny thing is everytime he does this man still remains and screws up again. Why bother? Just leave us alone and we will kill off everything eventually.

    2 "I will sweep away everything
    from the face of the earth,"
    declares the LORD.
    3 "I will sweep away both men and animals;
    I will sweep away the birds of the air
    and the fish of the sea.
    The wicked will have only heaps of rubble [a]
    when I cut off man from the face of the earth,"
    declares the LORD.
     
  19. Anastasios

    Anastasios Member

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  20. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    Matthew 55-57
    55 Is not this the carpenters son? is not his mother called Mary?and his bretheren, James and Jo-ses, and Simon, and Judas?
    56 And his sisters, are they not with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
    57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

    Did Jesus just call himself a prophet?
     
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