Why do we find ancient references to 8 people in a large boat in diverse cultures and languages

[shunyadragon]

I'd reply, but your "facts" and "arguments" remind me of grade school.

Well,ah . . . they do teach some of the basics in grade school you apparently missed.

 

[Shad]

You seem honest, but statements like this, both general and uninformed, belie either a naive, trusting nature or a stupidity you only rarely exhibit:

bb: 3) These flood stories are intertwined with their creation stories.

"No they are not."

Your proposal is something a child would think up so my reply is fitting.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is it? How do you know that? It is presented as
being true.
The latter day revisionism in bible-interpretation
is a bit disingenuous, imo.
The earth as center of the universe had to be
abandoned, the bible re interpreted to fit.

The creation story was literal until 6 days,
everything poofed into place became too
obviously false, then days became of mu;lti-
million year length.

Where do you stop, with "just a teaching-story"?

There are lots of those, and even little red riding hood
is closer to possible than the flood.

It teaches a better lesson, too.

The nature of man? Nothing new or insightful
in the story.

The nature of god,?. The nature of something
that does not even exist, but if it did, it is "love". (?)

The flood story makes god out to be a bungling
psycho monster. Destroy the innocent for the
sins of the guilty, kill kill kill. And in a slow horrible
way, besides, (before tossing them in a lake of
fire)

What the hell kind of lesson is that?

When these stories were told in the firelight on cold winter nights, children believed they actually happened. 50 year old grandparents did not.

 

[Audie]

When these stories were told in the firelight on cold winter nights, children believed they actually happened. 50 year old grandparents did not.

Great! Lie to the kids, tell them the place is run
by a murderous psycho monster.

Kids are vulnerable and credulous that way.
I am not-I can see right away that you just made
up that "grandparents did not".

All this does say something about human
nature, especially those commotted to a
great web of fantasy, tall tales, deception.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Floods happen everywhere, in many countries it is a yearly phenomenon. Which country escapes them - America, Europe, India, China? Come July/August and we will have floods. This time a lot of snow has accumulated in Himalayas. We will have floods this year also. Just escaped a severe cyclone. Only a few deaths, people were evacuated in time. Same thing must have happened when the glacial cap disappeared (science says it happened in a very short time).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Actually no, though Creation stories do exist in many cultures, they are separate from the flood stories, and they are more a mix of polytheistic animalist and anthropomorphic Creation stories that do not resemble the Biblical Creation. The flood stories are overwhelmingly specific referring to river floods, and Tsunamis, The catastrophic geologic regional and local floods related to the melting of the glaciers, are for the most part not recorded by the ancient cultures.

You have no references to document what you have described above.

Trusting the actual geologic objective verifiable evidence does confirm the ancient records and stories as being catastrophic river floods and tsunamis. In Japan, Northwest Americas and around the Pacific rim are stories that specific tsunami events documented by the physical evidence. The catastrophic river flood of China is also extremely well documented by both Chinese written records, and geologic evidence.

Your argument is indeed general and uninformed of the specific scientific evidence, and based only on your religious agenda. You have not provided nor cited any specific scientific nor archaelogical evidence to support your assertions.

I see! You've investigated all 120 creation accounts of the ancient world. I stand corrected.

 

[shunyadragon]

I see! You've investigated all 120 creation accounts of the ancient world. I stand corrected.

Your sarcasm is noted, but meaningless. You stand corrected based on the objective verifiable evidence.

Yes! Actually more than that considering the local tsunamis that commonly occur around the Pacific rim. The literature concerning the Native Americans in the Northwest, and the Japanese tsunamis. The geologic events associated with these ancient culture myth events well documented going back as long as humans occupied these regions. China river floods are among the best documented in ancient Chinese records, and concordance with geologic evidence, I have researched the Mediterranian and Black Sea inundation. I can provide a number of references for the catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates Valley that is closest related to the Sumerian records in cuneiform. The literature for the river floods associated with the Ganges Meghama of India and Bangladesh, and the Indus of Pakistan. Actually what makes this easier is most of the ancient records of the cultures and correlated geologic evidence involve repeated events in the same region up into modern history, with the exception of the flood events specifically associated with the melting of the glaciers, and there is known local or regional stories associated with these floods.

If you be specific I can easily provide the references to flood history including the documented geologic references.

To add geomorphology is one of my specialties in the field of Geology, and I have over 50 years experience studying land forms related to erosion, deposition and by the way flooding,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Great! Lie to the kids, tell them the place is run
by a murderous psycho monster.

Kids are vulnerable and credulous that way.
I am not-I can see right away that you just made
up that "grandparents did not".

All this does say something about human
nature, especially those commotted to a
great web of fantasy, tall tales, deception.

Audie, we teach the children at their own developmental level. They think concretely. That is normal for them. When they are more mature, if they don't figure it out for themselves, hopefully it will be explained to them. Sadly, sometimes it isn't. After all, there are different opinions on this, even within Judaism. The point is to absorb what it teaches about mankind (that it can be so wicked it deserves to be punished) and what it teaches about God (that he judges the wicked). That, btw, does not make God a monster. It makes him just.

 

[Audie]

Audie, we teach the children at their own developmental level. They think concretely. That is normal for them. When they are more mature, if they don't figure it out for themselves, hopefully it will be explained to them. Sadly, sometimes it isn't. After all, there are different opinions on this, even within Judaism. The point is to absorb what it teaches about mankind (that it can be so wicked it deserves to be punished) and what it teaches about God (that he judges the wicked). That, btw, does not make God a monster. It makes him just.

Children are taught by their parents that wrong choices get
punished. Concretely.

I wont need lessons on early childhood education.


A "god" who kills babies, toddlers, innocent children of any
age, along with the mentally disabled, and trillions of
other living things sentient or otherwise for the sins* of
others is not just.

Doing so in a prolonged manner, allowing plenty of time for
desperate attempts to survive-mothers to protect their children-
that is for sure a psycho monster.

What it takes, what it does to someone's mind to force fit that
to wise and just, a good lesson for children, I dont know.

I was spared that kind of upbringing.

* note the psycho reasononing of inventing "sin", being anything
the "god" does not like, inventing "sinners" and the torturing them
for not meeting his standards.

 

[Alo]

Lord of The Rings features dwarves...but so does Dungeons and Dragons! Explain that.

In The Bible, Giants lived in the earth before the flood. God said he'd destroy everything in the earth, but repented, and only destroyed everything from the face of the earth.

Like the giants, Hori and the Horites lived in Mt. Seir. Esau married into their family.

When Nebuchadnezzar invaded and Esau moved north, so did the Horites.

Esau became known as Ashkenazi Jews. Hori is in the Poetic Edda, Voluspo, known as, Hor, is a dwarf, and he lived in the earth. Ai and Alvin are his relatives...

Alvan is Hori's kin in Genesis 35, and Ai is a city near Seir.

The Native Americans who survived the flood in the earth are called Hopi.

 

[sooda]

The culture the authors of Gilgamesh came from were plains dwellers, i.e. not that familiar with boats.

They weren't boats.. they were river barges that were used to haul, grain, beer and livestock down the Euphrates River.

 

[sooda]

In The Bible, Giants lived in the earth before the flood. God said he'd destroy everything in the earth, but repented, and only destroyed everything from the face of the earth.

Like the giants, Hori and the Horites lived in Mt. Seir. Esau married into their family.

When Nebuchadnezzar invaded and Esau moved north, so did the Horites.

Esau became known as Ashkenazi Jews. Hori is in the Poetic Edda, Voluspo, known as, Hor, is a dwarf, and he lived in the earth. Ai and Alvin are his relatives...

Alvan is Hori's kin in Genesis 35, and Ai is a city near Seir.

The Native Americans who survived the flood in the earth are called Hopi.

LOLOL. That's a doozy. Where does it come from?

 

[shunyadragon]

In The Bible, Giants lived in the earth before the flood. God said he'd destroy everything in the earth, but repented, and only destroyed everything from the face of the earth.

Like the giants, Hori and the Horites lived in Mt. Seir. Esau married into their family.

When Nebuchadnezzar invaded and Esau moved north, so did the Horites.

Esau became known as Ashkenazi Jews. Hori is in the Poetic Edda, Voluspo, known as, Hor, is a dwarf, and he lived in the earth. Ai and Alvin are his relatives...

Alvan is Hori's kin in Genesis 35, and Ai is a city near Seir.

The Native Americans who survived the flood in the earth are called Hopi.

First, no evidence of the Noah flood. Second, the above is a product of mythology and a creative imagination. Third, many tribes of the Americas have a long history based on archaeology going back older than any record of the flood. Worldwide there are continuous settlement of humans without records without a record or evidence they were destroyed by a flood.

Yes, there are records and documentation of local catastrophic floods throughout human history up until today, but there were always survivors to write about the floods.

 

[Audie]

In The Bible, Giants lived in the earth before the flood. God said he'd destroy everything in the earth, but repented, and only destroyed everything from the face of the earth.

Like the giants, Hori and the Horites lived in Mt. Seir. Esau married into their family.

When Nebuchadnezzar invaded and Esau moved north, so did the Horites.

Esau became known as Ashkenazi Jews. Hori is in the Poetic Edda, Voluspo, known as, Hor, is a dwarf, and he lived in the earth. Ai and Alvin are his relatives...

Alvan is Hori's kin in Genesis 35, and Ai is a city near Seir.

The Native Americans who survived the flood in the earth are called Hopi.

IF the bible really really says there was such a flood,
giants or no giants, it is just another book of moldy bs.

 

[Alo]

LOLOL. That's a doozy. Where does it come from?

Genesis, of course...

Genesis 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


The other parts can be found in Voluspo, which is akin to Genesis in the Poetic Eddas: and Hopi legends tell how ant people kept them safe in the earth during a global flood.

 

[Alo]

First, no evidence of the Noah flood. Second, the above is a product of mythology and a creative imagination. Third, many tribes of the Americas have a long history based on archaeology going back older than any record of the flood. Worldwide there are continuous settlement of humans without records without a record or evidence they were destroyed by a flood.

Yes, there are records and documentation of local catastrophic floods throughout human history up until today, but there were always survivors to write about the floods.

Plato thought it's more logical to believe mythologies that offer no proofs, and search for truth in them, than to doubt them...

"Enough on this head; and now let what we have said about the nature of the created and visible gods have an end.
To know or tell the origin of the other divinities is beyond us, and we must accept the traditions of the men of old time who affirm themselves to be the offspring of the gods-that is what they say-and they must surely have known their own ancestors.
How can we doubt the word of the children of the gods?
Although they give no probable or certain proofs, still, as they declare that they are speaking of what took place in their own family, we must conform to custom and believe them."
Timaeus

 

[Alo]

IF the bible really really says there was such a flood,
giants or no giants, it is just another book of moldy bs.

Now that's a moldy old opinon.

Can you please come up with something original next time?

 

[shunyadragon]

Plato thought it's more logical to believe mythologies that offer no proofs, and search for truth in them, than to doubt them...

"Enough on this head; and now let what we have said about the nature of the created and visible gods have an end.
To know or tell the origin of the other divinities is beyond us, and we must accept the traditions of the men of old time who affirm themselves to be the offspring of the gods-that is what they say-and they must surely have known their own ancestors.
How can we doubt the word of the children of the gods?
Although they give no probable or certain proofs, still, as they declare that they are speaking of what took place in their own family, we must conform to custom and believe them."
Timaeus

We have come along way since Plato. We no longer believe in mythology without objective verifiable evidence. The origin or existence of Divinities is another issue, and the acceptance of their existence is without objective verifiable evidence based on faith.

 

[shunyadragon]

Now that's a moldy old opinon.

Can you please come up with something original next time?

@Audie presented a valid problem with the what the scripture literally states.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Another thought occured to me... funny how the pro-Flood people demand we accept this highly contrived "evidence" of the Flood by half shutting an eye and squinting at a single Chinese ideogram, while simultaneously dismissing the rest of the entire Chinese mythological and cultural edifice as s8lly superstition.