Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Well that would be some pretty bizarre reasoning. "Populations don't evolve, therefore God exists"
Er.....um.......
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Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?
- Thread starter Jose Fly
- Start date
Er.....um.......
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
No worries.
You deny evolution in favor of supernatural creation by God. That's a creationist.
That is not so in this case. Having personally practiced science for a decade and a half with fellow physicists, chemists and biologists on countless projects I directly know the reasons and the evidence that cause my compatriot biologists to be as certain of evolution as the geologists are about the roundness of the earth. You see Jenny, Bible was written, like any other book, by the hands of men and women...and thus all your faith comes from relying on things written by and believed by man. But the natural world was certainly not created by humans and for those who learn to read it directly, are reading a book that is not man-made and this original writing is free from all human biases and agenda.
No, I do not. But if one's worldview depends on correctly knowing certain aspects of reality well, then they should make the effort of knowing these. Deciding from a position of ignorance is folly. And your knowledge and understanding is inadequate, and if knowing if evolution is true or false makes a difference to your critical worldviews, you should make an effort to learn it more. You see, I have not cared to read much on Information Theory or the science of botany as they do not much impact my worldview and beliefs. But evolution, geology, cosmology does. So I have learned them.
For every ignorant person, there are even more ignorant person. Other people's ignorance does not excuse yours.
And I (and 99% of all scientists who are like me) have found all their arguments lacking in merit in entirety. We have looked at what their arguments are and their evidence is and have found them to be wrong. I am happy to discuss their arguments and show you why the majority of scientists in the world have utterly rejected them. You are free to assess those reasons yourself.
Which Christian group are you?
Reading and praying a lot does not generate understanding or freedom from dogma. Quite the opposite. Such freedom comes from embracing skepticism and openly and relentlessly questioning things that you believe in.
Such paranoia about "evil" things in the world is a feature of the dogmatic sects as they fear that the actual truths of reality to destroy their cherished false beliefs. Darkness fears the Light and runs away from it, but light fears nothing.
You have not mentioned which group you belonged to.
It is not required that you have to attend college to learn about the important sciences. Plenty of online courses are available and you can augment that with structured visits to museums, planetariums and university lab to see whats what.
Evolution Courses | Coursera
Competition is what separates truth from falsehood. Knowledge that comes from the true state of things remains reliable while that which comes from mistakes and false beliefs dissolves away, just as acid dissolves the dross from gold. In science, competition is not among people, but among ideas. And ideas that are more in keeping with reality win out. Remove competition, and there is nothing left to separate the false from the true.
You are free to do so. What are his arguments? I notice that he has written neither any book nor any scientific papers on this topic at all. Tell me what his arguments are and I will show you why they have no scientific merit. Then you can assess them yourself. So
1) What are his arguments (please provide summary with sources)?
2) What are his evidence for these arguments (summary with sources)?
Then I will refute them with evidence and reasons as to why they have no merit. Let's see what's what.
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Sure it is, if your read it in a different way from what you usually do.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Ok, let's document what you just tried to pull. Here you ask for additional info and data on horse fossils. ImmortalFlame responds by giving you a link where you can look into that. And what do you do? You ignore it and go off on some tangent about the "Lucy" fossil.
That sort of behavior is indicative of something that deserves its own thread.
Jenny Collins
Active Member
Creationism is a fundamentalist movement, usually associated with YEC! There is an umbrella term which breaks up creation believers into different categories! I don't care what they say, they can't define me! My religion rejects that word and its connotations! Just like when the word cult came out, groups like the Moonies, or the followers of Jim Jones, then someone got this idea to use it to discredit harmless religions, which weren't their cup of tea! So a new word was born, even though sociologists tell them they are wrong! So I reject the word creationist, even if it isn't derogatory like cult
By the way, I have had several evolutionists argue that "evolutionist" isn't a word
Jenny Collins
Active Member
I
But let's mention dogma for a second! If you are Catholic or Protestant, you likely believe in Hell, a place of suffering of some sort! Maybe you believe it is separation and not fire, don't know! That is not a Biblical teaching and the scriptures about fire mean eternal destruction
But my reason for bringing this up, is because you bring up my "dogma" Be careful there! You likely believe in eternal torture! And you point fingers at my "dogma"? Even the atheists/evolutionist who are on your side in this post would turn on you in a second if we got on that subject! And even would pick on you for believing in the Bible itself, although I believe it too, but they would point to Israelite soldiers dashing kids on rocks, and bears attacking kids! So the people who are presenting a united front against me, would shatter into a million pieces and instead of calling me dumb, would call each other dumb!
And as far as me needing to "educate" myself about science more instead of letting scientists on the side of creation influence me, who am I supposed to go to educate myself? The side who believes evolution? Then I would be letting them do my thinking for me, because I will never reach the level of understanding no matter who I "educate" myself from!
And let's explore this further! According to evolutionist astronomer Philip Plait, in his book Bad Astronomy, he claims that even the so-called experts on the side of evolution screw up science facts, and he means people like you!
He said that when he was doing research for his book, he found out that he had false ideas himself! So this top expert who was going to write a book found out he was wrong in ways! True, he corrected himself, but all of the ones out there with flawed ideas may NOT catch their mistakes!
Which means that "scientists" like you, who posture here and assert themselves so strongly and talk down to me, may not even fully know what they are talking about!
This is how I have come to my conclusions about evolution:
I trust the Bible! Not for superficial reasons either! Secondly reason: The Bible is not consistent with evolution! Even many atheists will tell you this! Third reason: The science world is divided on evolution, and as I already explained, I don't care about your percentages! I have heard both sides to a point, and have heard rebuttals to some of the challenges here, just can't recall exact details! And a lot of times I hear the rebuttals at a later time! The rebuttals make sense
So because I believe in the Bible for solid reasons, and because I also hear the scientific reasons against it, band also because I see the flawed logic and thinking in groups like this, I reject it! And when I say flawed thinking, here is an example: I said that I didn't know that everyone claiming to be scientist here was who they claimed! Didn't say they weren't either! This shows critical thinking on my part that I don't just believe someone who I never met and their claims!
Later I said I was good at art and that I didn't go to school for it, to show that people can know something without going through the schools! So Thumper starts belittling my claims of being good at art and bringing up my saying that I didn't know that people were scientists on here! I think one other person said that too, that "it is just your own opinion that you are good at art" First of all, I have won art contests, and have feedback that I am good, but that is beside the point!
It is a huge difference when someone claims they are scientists to back up science claims, than someone who says they are good in art in a discussion about science! I wasn't using my art ability to try to demonstrate my knowledge of science! Furthermore, I was being belittled and treated as though I was lying about my abilities! They don't know me so how can they act like I am lying?
When I was talking about science, I didn't belittle claims that people were scientists only said "I don't know" So it is flawed logic by people like Thumper, and other things people say on here, that I wonder if it carries over into other areas of thinking!
didn't read any of what you wrote up there, but remember yesterday you were insulting me rather than sticking to the subject! You told me I was so influenced by my "dogma" I think you identified yourself as a believer, and said the Bible was consistent with evolution! It isn't
But let's mention dogma for a second! If you are Catholic or Protestant, you likely believe in Hell, a place of suffering of some sort! Maybe you believe it is separation and not fire, don't know! That is not a Biblical teaching and the scriptures about fire mean eternal destruction
But my reason for bringing this up, is because you bring up my "dogma" Be careful there! You likely believe in eternal torture! And you point fingers at my "dogma"? Even the atheists/evolutionist who are on your side in this post would turn on you in a second if we got on that subject! And even would pick on you for believing in the Bible itself, although I believe it too, but they would point to Israelite soldiers dashing kids on rocks, and bears attacking kids! So the people who are presenting a united front against me, would shatter into a million pieces and instead of calling me dumb, would call each other dumb!
And as far as me needing to "educate" myself about science more instead of letting scientists on the side of creation influence me, who am I supposed to go to educate myself? The side who believes evolution? Then I would be letting them do my thinking for me, because I will never reach the level of understanding no matter who I "educate" myself from!
And let's explore this further! According to evolutionist astronomer Philip Plait, in his book Bad Astronomy, he claims that even the so-called experts on the side of evolution screw up science facts, and he means people like you!
He said that when he was doing research for his book, he found out that he had false ideas himself! So this top expert who was going to write a book found out he was wrong in ways! True, he corrected himself, but all of the ones out there with flawed ideas may NOT catch their mistakes!
Which means that "scientists" like you, who posture here and assert themselves so strongly and talk down to me, may not even fully know what they are talking about!
This is how I have come to my conclusions about evolution:
I trust the Bible! Not for superficial reasons either! Secondly reason: The Bible is not consistent with evolution! Even many atheists will tell you this! Third reason: The science world is divided on evolution, and as I already explained, I don't care about your percentages! I have heard both sides to a point, and have heard rebuttals to some of the challenges here, just can't recall exact details! And a lot of times I hear the rebuttals at a later time! The rebuttals make sense
So because I believe in the Bible for solid reasons, and because I also hear the scientific reasons against it, band also because I see the flawed logic and thinking in groups like this, I reject it! And when I say flawed thinking, here is an example: I said that I didn't know that everyone claiming to be scientist here was who they claimed! Didn't say they weren't either! This shows critical thinking on my part that I don't just believe someone who I never met and their claims!
Later I said I was good at art and that I didn't go to school for it, to show that people can know something without going through the schools! So Thumper starts belittling my claims of being good at art and bringing up my saying that I didn't know that people were scientists on here! I think one other person said that too, that "it is just your own opinion that you are good at art" First of all, I have won art contests, and have feedback that I am good, but that is beside the point!
It is a huge difference when someone claims they are scientists to back up science claims, than someone who says they are good in art in a discussion about science! I wasn't using my art ability to try to demonstrate my knowledge of science! Furthermore, I was being belittled and treated as though I was lying about my abilities! They don't know me so how can they act like I am lying?
When I was talking about science, I didn't belittle claims that people were scientists only said "I don't know" So it is flawed logic by people like Thumper, and other things people say on here, that I wonder if it carries over into other areas of thinking!
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Actually, many religious folks do not believe in any sort of eternal torture or punishment.
For one, an atheist is an atheist, and that has no bearing on acceptance of evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory that has no basis on or in atheism. It is incorrect to put the two together such a way. And, also, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist." There are no "germists," not "gravitationists," or "oxidationists." We know they happen, and we need no special labels for accepting them - indeed there are no special labels. This "evolutionist" is nothing more than an attempt to make evolution appear to be a belief rather than a scientific theory. It doesn't work like that. I am not an evolutionist. I accept evolution and it has hardly any bearing on my identity. Ohm's law kind of applies to my identity, as I do things with electronics, but I am not an "Ohmist" because I don't need to believe in this, I only need follow a mathematical formula.
Jenny Collins
Active Member
Didn't read what you wrote, aren't you the one who used the false analogy of not going to a plumber to fix your car and compared it to not consulting with a scientist because he is a "different kind" of scientist? Taking two very dissimilar fields and comparing it to two closely related fields and the "other kind" of scientist has studied biology too! Although you may have some science background, according to astronomer/evolutionist philip plait a lot of what passes for science knowledge is flawed and that includes the science community in support of evolution!
I do not think it is fair in all cases to point out age difference, but since you are trying to act like your "science knowledge" trumps my "science experience" I will point out that I am 20 years ahead in life experience, 50 to your 30! You have a lot to learn ahead of you, I would urge that you keep an open mind
Jenny Collins
Active Member
Didn't read what you just wrote above, but aren't you the one who belittled my claims of being good at art, without ever seeing my art? And try to compare that to my pointing out that we don't know that people who claim are scientists on here, really are? You scoffed at my art claims, I didn't scoff at the scientist claims, I said I was cautious of believing it, which is critical thinking! And even if I was lying about my art claims, we are not talking about art, we are talking about SCIENCE! If I am lying about art in a discussion about science, it doesn't matter! If they are lying about being scientists in a discussion about science, it does matter! That is why I am not reading anything more from you, because of your weird logic and reasoning!
I am weeding out the ones like that, and talking to people like Jose, and a couple others who show some reasonableness!
Polymath is sort of reasonable too, after I pointed out some things about the stinking debate skills of others, he has backed off and just having fair dialogue, no cheap attacks! Sayak is kind of going in a bad direction and getting out of hand, emotion will do that
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
No, there are lots of different types of creationism. There's young-earth creationism, old-earth creationism, progressive creationism, gap-theory creationism, day-age creationism, intelligent design creationism.....and that's just within Christianity. There are also forms of Islamic creationism, Hindu creationism, pagan creationism.....
You may reject it, but it definitely applies.
Well, it is a word, but it's about as meaningful as "erosionist".
Jenny Collins
Active Member
I am not a part of the rest of Christendom so I can not be categorized with any of them! I looked at the definitions of creationists already and they don't define me! This is a word argument and that is clutter that is distracting from the topic, agreed? I reject the word creationist, you don't reject it for me, but it is just a word! So no need to go further
Jenny Collins
Active Member
God exists for deeper reasons than that
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
If it's just a word, why are you trying so strenuously to avoid it being used? Like it or not, you DO fit the definition of a creationist. You 1) believe in theistic creation and 2) deny the theory of evolution and common descent because you feel it contradicts your religious beliefs. That is the definition of a contemporary creationist.
Why did you not?
No. I am not a Christian. I am a Hindu.
Many Christians believe that the Bible is consistent with evolution, and I find their arguments far more cogent than what the detractors say.
I you actually read what other people write, you would not have wasted so much of your time. I am not a Christian but a Hindu. You should look at my label as well on the side.
No I do not.
You are ignorant about the science of evolution and your dogma prevents you from making an honest attempt at learning it. No human being (unless suffering from unfortunate afflictions of the mind) is dumb. Desire, effort and opportunity is all that is needed for most people to learn new things, including science.
You shortchange yourself. You are now calling yourself dumb, insulting your own capabilities. You do have the ability to reach the level of understanding where you can discern what scientific ideas are legitimate and which are not. I have never let anybody else do my thinking for me, either in matters of religion/spirit or in the matter of the world/science. You are free to learn and investigate both sides and their arguments in parallel. All that you need to do is take a notebook, a pencil or a pen and start.
You should trust that group that is constantly self-critical and constantly trying to check the reliability of their own knowledge and conclusions and constantly trying to investigate new things than a group that rigidly proclaims that they have the truth without justification and blind to whatever contrary evidence that ,may come. Its the latter group of dogmatic religious an ideological groups that have fallen into error and delusion, not science.
Knowledge is about beliefs that can be justified with reasons and evidence. But future evidence can always have some small chance of overturning current evidence. Thus all honest people and organizations accept that knowledge has uncertainty and that we have greater or lesser confidence in what we believe but never full certainty. Those groups that claim such certainties are liars and deceivers who seek to lead people like you astray by false claims of absolutes.
This is how I have come to my conclusions about evolution:
Your absolute trust on the Bible and the interpretation you cling to about it is misplaced. As long as you are not willing to let go of that trust and question the Bible and its interpretations with as much a critical eye as you do for science, you will never be able to walk a path that leads to truth. If Bible is true, it will come through such a critical examination for you, if not, it will fall by the wayside. That is the risk. Are you willing to take it?
I do not care about what other have said to you. Please focus on our conversation.
What Christian group do you belong to?
Jenny Collins
Active Member
This is the first time I actually checked out anything you said here, and I didn't actually read it! I used the ignore function for you, but see that you have followed me from one post to another! I take all this interest from you and the others as a compliment! As one intellectually honest person on that other post said to me: "the fact that they want to keep debating with you shows that what you are saying is compelling" Not just one person, but many, keep responding to me! What I am saying has the "ring of truth" In a court of law someone may give testimony which sounds true on the surface, and upon further probing may turn out to be true or turn out to be false! So at the very least, what I say sounds compelling! If I was just spouting clear nonsense, people would be ignoring me, which is what I have done with you Immortal Soul! And do you know why? I will isolate a few of the things you did on that other post! You told me when I sited medical data, to back it up! I told you that earlier in the thread I already had, and that if you wanted to look at that you could, or you could easily type a few words into the computer and find what I was saying! I also added that if anyone else wanted to find the data, that I would help them, because they might actually listen to me!
But you still demanded I provide sources, so I did! I provided a source that backed up the speculation of doctors that 40 to 60 percent of transfusions are unneeded and also told about many dangers of blood! You said back: "All that article did was confirm that some transfusions are given when unneeded" and that was untrue! But even if it had only proven the sited figure, you had previously asked me: "Show me the sources that say that 40 to 60 percent are unneeded" So I did!
And I ALSO provided other sources which confirmed the dangers of blood! So you pick on one source for not saying they are dangerous (it did) when I had posted additional sources which backed up my other contentions!
Then you told me that it was against rules to copy and paste! I didn't find anything in the rules that said that but even if it is, you ASKED me for sources! Then when I provide them you tell me I am breaking rules! Do you want the sources or don't you?
After that you told me: "If you google 'evidence of Big Foot' a lot would come up too" That may be so, if you go to outlandish sites! But when I showed sources to you they were from sites like John Hopkins medical institute, hardly comparable to junk web sites! And you zeroed in on the one link to an article in a magazine from my religion, as if that discredited it somehow! Even that article listed external sources!
It was constantly this way with you! "Show me the source" I show you "You aren't supposed to copy and paste" "You could make a case for Big Foot too if you wanted to" If you trust junk sites, yes!
So I am weeding out people like you, even if they stalk me to other threads, because I don't want to waste my time dealing with stinking thinking!
Jenny Collins
Active Member
I didn't read what you wrote for several reasons! I am becoming burnt out from dealing with multiple people at once, and also because I can't respond to everything everyone says, it takes more energy than I have! I am recovering from surgery, and if I sense that a person is just trying to rile me up or the way they talk to me is rude, I spend my time with others! It may be true that I also talk a little strongly, but when you said "Your dogma is making you think that way" I found it offensive!
Plus you are telling me you are Hindu, that doesn't rule out that you studied the Bible, but if you study your own religion, how do you find time to know the Bible that well? It is a thick, concentrated book with lots of potentially ambiguous things in it! So the very thing you accuse me of, could be applied to you!
You say I need to learn science and not accept what creation scientists tell me! Meanwhile you are accepting what an element of Christendom tells you without having concentrated Bible knowledge! Your own words: "Most Christians think the Bible is compatible with evolution"
Let's explore that: According to the Bible itself, "most" who profess to be Christians are false Christians! If you need scriptures, I will supply them!
And here in America, many "Christians" don't think evolution is compatible with the Bible! A large minority of them disbelieve evolution!
What religion do I belong to? A religion which the media polls say is one of the best read, if not the best read (pertaining to the Bible), denomination! And I happen to know its members also comparison shop and read many, many translations, use lexicons and concordances!
I have made it clear to some on here what religion I belong to already, how can one not know when I was discussing the thread on blood transfuions! However, I prefer to let people get to know who I am by what I say, not by a label, because right away the ad hominem attacks begin! "I heard that your founder was a freemason" "I heard this about you" "My second cousin told his third aunt this about you!"
I don't want to get bombarded with distortions promoted on the internet by disgruntled ex members, that is all irrelevant to what we are talking about here, and largely untrue! And if you examine my religion, be careful, the tables can be turned, Salem Witch hunts can be discussed, the Inquisiton, torture and burning people live on stakes, Billy Graham saying the world would end around the year 1950, Calvin, Wesley, Luther and others saying the end would come by such and such date, Calvin (and other founders of todays religions) saying Jesus was Michael the archangel (he is) and then being attacked because my religion claims it!
That is what happens when I name what religion that I belong to! So I think it is best to leave my religion out of it, and just talk about the subject at hand
Jenny Collins
Active Member
So you claim you are more impressed with what you "other" Christians tell you about the Bible and Evolution being compatible! Did those "other" Christians tell you that Adam is referred to as a real person in other parts of the Bible? "Through one man sin entered the world" and other places! Did the "other" Christians tell you that Adam is listed first in all the many lineages leading to Christ, peppered throughout the Old Testament? Doesn't make sense that a fictional person from a parable would be mentioned first and all the rest were literal people!
Did the "others" tell you that the account of Noah and the ark is referred to in other places of the Bible, like 2 Peter 3:1-5?
Did the "others" tell you that the Bible says "You can't get thorns from thistles" and more, and also says animals were made "according to their kinds" Did the others tell you that the Bible says: "with God all things are possible" so when people say God couldn't fit all those animals on the ark, and so on, maybe he used some means that we aren't aware of?
I am a JW! You are a Hindu! What do you know about my religion, other than what other people have told you about us? Did you hear it from the horse's mouth? I read about Hindus, but can't call to mind a lot! What comes to mind is a mental picture of a statue with eight or so arms and an elephant God! My religion may not impress you, but that doesn't impress me!
What else comes to mind are castes with poor untouchables who are treated like pariahs! Of course that is more in the past, but some prejudices still remain! And cows wandering the streets doing as they please, they are sacred after all! So what makes me so impressed that your mind tells you evolution is true?
Jenny Collins
Active Member
Serious question for you: You are Hindu, so if you think cows are sacred and you believe in evolution! At what point did the cow become sacred? I may get some details wrong, but doesn't evolution teach "molecules to man"? And wouldn't that apply also to cows? I don't know what their ancestral lineage is, what creatures they descended from but when did they become sacred? Was it the bacteria" Was it some creature somewhere in the middle of this evolution process? Or was a "soul" born into them on that very day that the first cow emerged! I ask the same question of Bible believers who claim "souls" entered into the first person! The supposed first person had a "soul" but their mother didn't!
I wish you a speedy recovery.
There is no obligation to respond to everybody or to everything. However, if you quote somebody's response and say you have not read the response you are quoting, that is quite offensive.
If it is not not dogma, what has prevented you from seeking actual sources of information about the science of evolution from scientific writings in addition to whatever critiques of evolution have presented? That is the only way to assess truth, look at the original evidence and arguments from both sides and assess merits and demerits. Internet forum is not a good place get such information.
I have certain gifts in this regard (specifically in learning and reading). Further I have spent around 6 years in weekly Bible study in an evangelical group. Finally Bible is a very simple and short book compared to Hindu and Buddhist scriptures or scientific and mathematical and philosophical texts I also read.
I have quite an adequate knowledge on it, see above.
Also according to the Bible, nobody but God knows who is or is not a Christian. You can be as much wrong in your self-assessment as they (and all of you can be wrong is Christian version of God itself is mistaken). Thus such arguments lead you nowhere. The only thing I will say is that most people who self-describe themselves as Christian accept evolution (polls) and among those who I have met and interacted with, I have found their arguments cogent and their faith authentic. You yourself are also merely a self-described Christian, you may believe it, but if its true or not is unknowable to both yourself or anybody else other than God, according to Bible.
I (and the majority of Christians) consider them to be wrong. That's why we are having this discussion.
Well the subject at hand is that you appear unwilling to subject your faith in the Bible (and its specific interpretation) with the same kind of critical no-holds-barred skeptical examination as the conclusions of science. You are unwilling to take the step where you say that "the teachings of the Bible can be false, their interpretations in your church can also be false. Let me look carefully and with honest critical skepticism what kind of evidence supports the idea that these teachings and interpretations are true and what kind of evidence suggest that they are false or wrong or uncertain or unsound. Then let me weigh them up an assign how much confidence can truly be asserted about my beliefs." We scientists do this all the time for our sceintific conclusions, its the scientific method. I also do it for my own religious beliefs. How willing are you do such a thing about your faith?