Why do people make children?

[Kfox]

But you have failed to address the issue. Why people should make children.
One reason why they should make them.

Because life is good. IMO life is much better than non-life. My parents were poor and had a half dozen kids. Had I been my parents I would have stopped at 2 because they would not have struggled financially as much as they did by having 6. But had they stopped at 2, I would not have been born and I hate for me to not have been born; considering what my life has become. All of my siblings as well as myself are much more financially successful than my parents were and if you ask any of them, they are happy they were born rather than not born because my parents quit having children before they were born.
So you ask why should my parents have had children? Because now that we are born, we are happy they did, and so are my parents.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But you have failed to address the issue. Why people should make children.
One reason why they should make them.

Because they want to and it's none of your business. You have no right to demand that others not have children because you don't want to and aren't able to, anyway.

Also, I'd rather live in a world full of laughing and smiling children than bitter old resentful adults who are all alone. Children are our future.

 

[Estro Felino]

Because life is good. IMO life is much better than non-life. My parents were poor and had a half dozen kids. Had I been my parents I would have stopped at 2 because they would not have struggled financially as much as they did by having 6. But had they stopped at 2, I would not have been born and I hate for me to not have been born; considering what my life has become. All of my siblings as well as myself are much more financially successful than my parents were and if you ask any of them, they are happy they were born rather than not born because my parents quit having children before they were born.
So you ask why should my parents have had children? Because now that we are born, we are happy they did, and so are my parents.

I am done, honestly.
I just let you read passage from Medea, by Euripides written 2400 years ago.
Greeks wisdom


Often, before this present time,
I’ve had to make more complex arguments
and struggled with issues more serious
than those which women ought to wrestle with.
But we, too, have an artistic Muse
who lives among us to teach us wisdom.
But not all of us—the group of females
who can learn anything from her is small—
in a crowd of women you might find one.
So I can claim that among human beings
those who have no experience of children,
who have never given birth to offspring,
such people have far more happiness
than those who have been parents.
With those who have no children,
because they never come to see
whether their children grow up
to be a blessing or a curse to men,
their failure to have offspring
shields them from many grievances.
But those who in their own homes
have a sweet race of children growing,
I see them worn down with cares
their whole life long. First,
how they can raise their children well.
Next, how they can leave their sons
sufficient livelihood. And then,
it’s by no means clear that all the work
produces good or useless children.
There’s one final problem,
the worst for any mortal human being—
I’ll tell you: suppose those parents
have found a satisfactory way of life
and seen their children grow
into strong, young, virtuous men,
if Fate so wills it, Death arrives,
and carries the children’s bodies
away to Hades. What profit, then,
is there for us and our love of sons,
if the gods inflict on mortal men,
in addition to their other troubles,
this most painful further sorrow.

 

[Kfox]

I am done, honestly.

You asked a question; I gave you an answer. I think we're both done

 

[Estro Felino]

You asked a question; I gave you an answer. I think we're both done

Almost done. The Italian media were shocked by this heartbreaking testimony. A parent that has always worked to support her kids, and that is horrible how no public institution helps her.
That should make you understand, that since we live in a selfish, egoistical First World, where the State is absent, it's advisable not to make children.

 

[Kfox]

Almost done. The Italian media were shocked by this heartbreaking testimony. A parent that has always worked to support her kids, and that is horrible how no public institution helps her.
That should make you understand, that since we live in a selfish, egoistical First World, where the State is absent, it's advisable not to make children.

Do you think this is typical in Italy? Two parents with 2 kids making better than average income but are unable to afford the basic necessities of life? I don’t know Italy, but if her problems are typical for most people in Italy, perhaps people in Italy shouldn’t have kids. However…….I’ve got a feeling there is a little more going on here than what meets the eye.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you think this is typical in Italy?

She's from US...haven't you watched the video? I guess you haven't.

Two parents with 2 kids making better than average income but are unable to afford the basic necessities of life? I don’t know Italy, but if her problems are typical for most people in Italy, perhaps people in Italy shouldn’t have kids.

Most people in Italy don't make kids, indeed.

 

[Kfox]

She's from US...haven't you watched the video? I guess you haven't.

Had I not watched the video, I would not have known any of the details of her complaints that I mentioned in my response. The reason I thought she was from Italy is because it says the Italian media were surprised by her video; not the US media. However I wonder how come all of the other people in the US who make a good income aren't having her problems? Something seems to be missing here

Most people in Italy don't make kids, indeed.

Though record low there are still 1.25 children born per woman in Italy. So either there are a few women who are having an awful lot of kids in Italy to make up for those who don't, or most Italian women are still having at least 1 child. I'm gonna assume the latter.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/17/europe/italy-record-low-birth-rate-intl-cmd

 

[Estro Felino]

Had I not watched the video, I would not have known any of the details of her complaints that I mentioned in my response. The reason I thought she was from Italy is because it says the Italian media were surprised by her video; not the US media. However I wonder how come all of the other people in the US who make a good income aren't having her problems? Something seems to be missing here

Sorry, right.
But I thought it was obvious that a woman who can speak English that good, having an American accent, is from the US.

As for the second question, I am 100% sure there are many people in the US who can relate.

Though record low there are still 1.25 children born per woman in Italy. So either there are a few women who are having an awful lot of kids in Italy to make up for those who don't, or most Italian women are still having at least 1 child. I'm gonna assume the latter.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/17/europe/italy-record-low-birth-rate-intl-cmd

Of course they still make children. 400 thousand children a year. Out of 60 million people. It's too much, considering we are overwhelmed by wars, illegal migrants and climate change.
Otherwise I wouldn't have become a sort of anti-Natalist, if the number had been okay.

 

[Kfox]

As for the second question, I am 100% sure there are many people in the US who can relate.

True; but those people likely don't have a better than average income.

Of course they still make children. 400 thousand children a year. Out of 60 million people.

I was just disagreeing with the claim that MOST women do not have children in Italy.

 

[Estro Felino]

I was just disagreeing with the claim that MOST women do not have children in Italy.

What number should be equivalent to " most women"?

 

[Kfox]

What number should be equivalent to " most women"?

More than half.

 

[Estro Felino]

More than half.

In Italy there are 25 million women in fertile age.
According to your thought, at least 13-14 million of them are parents of babies.
No...of course not.
According to statistics, there are not 14 million women with babies.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It takes a lot of employees to support one manager. It takes many many more to make a business owner rich.

It is extremely difficult to become rich directly from your own individual work..

It is in the interest of business owners that there is a ready supply of potential workers to keep the system alive.

Those poorer countries with high death rates, and poor public support, tend to also have high birth rates. Parents rely on many children to support them as they age. They rarely support birth control
.
Richer countries have fewer children and maintain their populations by immigration.

Abortion is often opposed more by the right wing and parties strongly identified as employers.
It is also strongly opposed by the more fundamental religions. Especially those interested in evangelism and increase in membership.

At an individual and family level children are seen as a costly Incomberance. Only offset by the natural urge to mate and sustain one's own lineage.

Except at the poorest levels the world trend is to have fewer children.

However capitalism relies on continuous growth and falling populations are counter indicative to this.

The highest quality of life, and the least damage to the environment and to the flora and fauna, was probably more easily achieved when the world human populations was less than a quarter the present levels.

The world's mind set needs to change, to encompass long term planning of infrastructure, education, and continuous training. The production of long life products that are easily repairable, updatable or recyclable. An emphasis on Quality rather than short lived quantity.

The emphasis on cooperation rather than competition between both countries and companies.
A high emphasis on research and development in every field to better the life of everyone.
To aim at attaining the necessary production and service levels needed to fully support the world's population, with a work force not exceeding one fifth of the population at any one time.

The world is finate and enclosed and the population needs to reflect this fact. It should be world policy to move towards stabilising the world's population at no more than 25% the present level.

 

[Estro Felino]

The world is finite and enclosed and the population needs to reflect this fact. It should be world policy to move towards stabilising the world's population at no more than 25% the present level.

A shocking anecdote: my experience.
I was born in 1985. Back then, the world population was 4 billion or so.
Now it has doubled. Eight billion.
This means, that throughout all these years, people have had sex so intensively and so obsessively that they have produced a number of babies that outnumbered the number of deaths.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The attack on capitalism is disgusting. Capitalism has done more than any other system in the world to improve the lives of the poor and trodden.

Not so.
Capitalism has vastly increased the ratio between extreme poverty and extreme wealth. There are more homeless people in the USA today, lining in extreme poverty, than any time in the past. The number of people supporting the service industries that live off charity in the form of tips, rather than wages paid by an employer is disgusting and close to slavery.

However the form of capitalism devised by the Chinese 'communist' government has raised both the infrastructure and. industrial, service and retail sectors in a fantastically short time to world leading standards. At the same time it has reduced extreme poverty and homelessness to virtually zero. While there are now many multi millionaires the middle income and blue collar wages make for a high quality of affordable life for a vast majority of workers. There is also very affordable high quality medical services universally available with modern major hospitals in all cities.
Their Ultra modern transport infrastructure is also world leading and second to none. It is also affordable.

The are now two entirely different Capitalist systems in the world. With the Chinese more ethical one now leading the way.
The western system has become parasitic, and self destructive.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A shocking anecdote: my experience.
I was born in 1985. Back then, the world population was 4 billion or so.
Now it has doubled. Eight billion.
This means, that throughout all these years, people have had sex so intensively and so obsessively that they have produced a number of babies that outnumbered the number of deaths.
While I am childless, because I have sought much more spiritual things.

The quantity of Sex is not the problem.
It is the number of pregnancies leading to births that is the problem.
The lack of universally available fool proof birth control.
Or universally available abortion only adds to the problem

 

[Estro Felino]

The quantity of Sex is not the problem.
It is the number of pregnancies leading to births that is the problem.
The lack of universally available fool proof birth control.
Or universally available abortion only adds to the problem

Exactly.
There are prostitutes that have never got pregnant and never had abortions.
Because since the sixties there is a pill called hormonal pill, that practically annihilates ovulation.

Many women take it.

I meant that so many people had sex carelessly.

 

[Watchmen]

Not so.
Capitalism has vastly increased the ratio between extreme poverty and extreme wealth. There are more homeless people in the USA today, lining in extreme poverty, than any time in the past. The number of people supporting the service industries that live off charity in the form of tips, rather than wages paid by an employer is disgusting and close to slavery.

However the form of capitalism devised by the Chinese 'communist' government has raised both the infrastructure and. industrial, service and retail sectors in a fantastically short time to world leading standards. At the same time it has reduced extreme poverty and homelessness to virtually zero. While there are now many multi millionaires the middle income and blue collar wages make for a high quality of affordable life for a vast majority of workers. There is also very affordable high quality medical services universally available with modern major hospitals in all cities.
Their Ultra modern transport infrastructure is also world leading and second to none. It is also affordable.

The are now two entirely different Capitalist systems in the world. With the Chinese more ethical one now leading the way.
The western system has become parasitic, and self destructive.

Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

 

[Estro Felino]

Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

Listen...if everybody stopped making children, Capitalists should start tilling the soil themselves, because they cannot employ the elderly...

It's the plain truth. Capitalists need slaves to exploit, that's why they benefit from overpopulation.