Why do feminist women still expect men to pay for a date?

[Rational Agnostic]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances? If they believe that they are truly and entirely not in need of men, and are entirely self-sufficient, why are they still demanding the man covers their expenses? Or, has the "feminist" movement, which originally focused on gender equality, now turned into a "female superiority" movement in which women who have now declared that they are equal to and not in any way in need of men, also demand special treatment from men?

 

[Kirran]

It is only particularly small strains within feminism which claim women are entirely self-sufficient, with no need for men. It's more about mutual dependence, that's how societies works.

As for the cultural phenomenon of the man paying for a date, that's something which isn't particularly feminist in nature, unless the justification is along the lines of 'Women earn 70 cence to the man's dollar - while that remains the case, let men pay for your drinks.'

 

[Rational Agnostic]

It is only particularly small strains within feminism which claim women are entirely self-sufficient, with no need for men. It's more about mutual dependence, that's how societies works.

As for the cultural phenomenon of the man paying for a date, that's something which isn't particularly feminist in nature, unless the justification is along the lines of 'Women earn 70 cence to the man's dollar - while that remains the case, let men pay for your drinks.'

I never thought of unequal average pay being a justification for men paying for women's drinks and/or dinner. But suppose the woman earns as much or more money than the man she is dating. If this is the case, and the woman still expected the man to pay her expenses, would she not be advocating for gender inequality?

 

[Kirran]

I never thought of unequal average pay being a justification for men paying for women's drinks and/or dinner. But suppose the woman earns as much or more money than the man she is dating. If this is the case, and the woman still expected the man to pay her expenses, would she not be advocating for gender inequality?

I wouldn't go so far as that. Extrapolating people's social views from their unexamined habits isn't especially watertight. But as a cultural phenomenon it does uphold misogynistic norms.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My husband never payed for my meals when we were dating. We just each payed for our own unless it was like a birthday date or a Christmas present or something.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I wouldn't go so far as that. Extrapolating people's social views from their unexamined habits isn't especially watertight. But as a cultural phenomenon it does uphold misogynistic norms.

Are you stating that a man paying for a woman's meal is misogynistic? How so?

 

[Laika]

I never thought of unequal average pay being a justification for men paying for women's drinks and/or dinner. But suppose the woman earns as much or more money than the man she is dating. If this is the case, and the woman still expected the man to pay her expenses, would she not be advocating for gender inequality?

Feminism isn't really a rule book. There aren't specific rules for each case and I think people mainly make it up as they go along based on mutual consent as in most relationships. If there is a rule I guess its a question of good communication and being honest with each other. Something like this shouldn't be a source of friction or resentment but instead people should be able take for granted that the roles people play in the relationship is often bigger than individual habits.

Its worth mentioning that some men enjoy cooking in the kitchen and its not consciously related to preconcieved gender roles so there are many ways in which these habits can be re-invented.

 

[Kirran]

Are you stating that a man paying for a woman's meal is misogynistic? How so?

I am saying that it fits into a misogynistic view of the world, due to the assumptions it is based upon when it is the accepted norm that the man pays. It paints a picture of the man as provider and woman as dependent, and of the man as the one attempting to "get" the woman through providing stuff.

Obviously if men sometimes pay, women sometimes pay, sometimes they split it then it's not the same.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances? If they believe that they are truly and entirely not in need of men, and are entirely self-sufficient, why are they still demanding the man covers their expenses? Or, has the "feminist" movement, which originally focused on gender equality, now turned into a "female superiority" movement in which women who have now declared that they are equal to and not in any way in need of men, also demand special treatment from men?

Gosh, life's just not fair, is it?

When you discussed this on your last date, what did she say?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am saying that it fits into a misogynistic view of the world, due to the assumptions it is based upon when it is the accepted norm that the man pays. It paints a picture of the man as provider and woman as dependent, and of the man as the one attempting to "get" the woman through providing stuff.

Obviously if men sometimes pay, women sometimes pay, sometimes they split it then it's not the same.

I don't think it's necessarily misogynistic. It probably has some evolutionary function, since we see males from many species that try to woo the female by impressing her. Primates behave similarly, and we are primates. So that's probably part of it, underneath it all. But it is a cultural thing.

 

[Kirran]

I don't think it's necessarily misogynistic. It probably has some evolutionary function, since we see males from many species that try to woo the female by impressing her. Primates behave similarly, and we are primates.

It may well be that gender norms have an evolutionary basis in some cases, but that doesn't mean that we need them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It may well be that gender norms have an evolutionary basis in some cases, but that doesn't mean that we need them.

I didn't say we "need" them, but I am saying that it's not necessarily misogynistic. Let's put it this way: when you like someone, you do stuff for them and try to impress them. Both men and women do that stuff.

 

[Quetzal]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances?

You are taking a lot of inaccurate liberties here. First you are assuming that all feminist women expect the men to pay for the date. This is inaccurate. You are also assuming the all feminist women have declared "entire independence" from men. This is also inaccurate. Finally, you are assuming that all feminist women do not need any assistance from men. This is also inaccurate. By default in your very first sentence your argument falls flat.

At any rate, in regards to the tradition of men paying for women on a date/at the bar/whatever, I believe is rooted in a need to display wealth, influence and status. What better way to show you are a financially stable mate than to offer to pay for a meal on the town? This is a modern day display of "showing off ones feathers" or a "mating dance". In my opinion this is not rooted in a feminist woman, but a male feeling the desire to impress in exchange for the possibility of mating.

 

[Kirran]

I didn't say we "need" them, but I am saying that it's not necessarily misogynistic. Let's put it this way: when you like someone, you do stuff for them and try to impress them. Both men and women do that stuff.

Yeah, true, I'm just referring to the cultural insitution of the man providing for the woman.

 

[columbus]

The rule I go by is simple. The inviter is offering a gift to the invitee. So, of course they are assumed to be paying. Anything else can be gently negotiated, but that's the default.
Guys will usually pay, but only because they are usually the ones who ask. But not always, and nothing to do with gender. Exactly.
Tom

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Ultimately, I don't see why this makes you think there is now a "female superiority" movement.


.

Initially, feminism was exclusively about "gender equality." But now, for many feminists, equality is not enough. Many of them also want special privileges in addition to equality, which is by definition, female superiority. Why do you think women are the ones who end marriages 70% of the time? Because legally, the price of getting divorced is FAR more severe for the male than for the female in the United States.

 

[Watchmen]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances? If they believe that they are truly and entirely not in need of men, and are entirely self-sufficient, why are they still demanding the man covers their expenses? Or, has the "feminist" movement, which originally focused on gender equality, now turned into a "female superiority" movement in which women who have now declared that they are equal to and not in any way in need of men, also demand special treatment from men?

I think you're painting with broad strokes.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Gosh, life's just not fair, is it?

When you discussed this on your last date, what did she say?

This post is not intended to complain about perceived unfairness. Just trying to understand modern "feminist" logic....

 

[Kuzcotopia]

This post is not intended to complain about perceived unfairness. Just trying to understand modern "feminist" logic....

So . . . When you discussed this on your last date with a woman, what happened?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

So . . . When you discussed this on your last date with a woman, what happened?

I've never discussed this issue with a woman before. It is something that I have thought of only very recently, and I am currently single. However, I may possibly discuss on dates with women in the future. Whether or not I discuss it will depend on the overall scenario.