Why do Christians get away with calling the bible the good book?

[McBell]

Yes, the bible is tedious and should be irrelevant to modern life. I would not waste a minute on it, if it was just the book of a cranky group of people who want to believe in some supernatural personal god in their privathy.
Unfortunately, it is the basis for a very powerful church that has still a privileged position in western society. People have been brainwashed and indoctrinated from early life to believe that there is a god and that the bible tells a story relevant for moral guidance.

Politicians still start wars because they think god told them so, and the Church meddles into many aspects of life (science, birth control, sex life etc.) from their privileged position. All this is based on a bible that tells a completely different story from what is claimed by them. This is why I think it is important to get familiar with the bible and to criticise it accordingly. But maybe nobody is really too bothered...

BTW...
You did not address the whole "getting away with" thing.

I am beginning to think that you are not going to ever actually address it.

How do you "get away with" complaining about how Christians "get away with" calling the Bible the good book.

 

[Dano]

BTW...
You did not address the whole "getting away with" thing.

I am beginning to think that you are not going to ever actually address it.

How do you "get away with" complaining about how Christians "get away with" calling the Bible the good book.

I don’t quite understand what you want?

Do you want me to say that it is not against the law? Well – no it’s not against the law.

Otherwise, I think I have amply explained what I mean in the rest of the thread. If you still have a problem with this, maybe you can be a bit more specific?

 

[Humanistheart]

Reading the bible it becomes obvious that it is full of racism, injustice, murder, genocide, etc, either directly committed or ordered by god.

Just to mention one passage from Numbers 13:15-17: 31:15 Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 31:16 Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor – which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 31:17 Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. 31:18 But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.

How can anybody get away with calling it the good book?

That baffles me too. I call them on it. When prosylitizers come to my door and reference the good book I ask them, which book would that be? The one where cain kills able? Maybe it's the one where god drowns millions of innocent children? Oh, I've got it, it's the one where jesus whips people in the temple and ruins their livelihood right?

 

[Cobblestones]

Reading the bible it becomes obvious that it is full of racism, injustice, murder, genocide, etc, either directly committed or ordered by god.

That sounds like a pretty good book to me! Who wants to read about peace and love and the wonders of nature when could read about incest and genocide and exile instead?

 

[McBell]

I don’t quite understand what you want?

Do you want me to say that it is not against the law? Well – no it’s not against the law.

Otherwise, I think I have amply explained what I mean in the rest of the thread. If you still have a problem with this, maybe you can be a bit more specific?

answer me this:
How do you "get away with" complaining about how Christians "get away with" calling the Bible the good book?

Seems to me that that the answer is to both the questions.

 

[Dano]

answer me this:
How do you "get away with" complaining about how Christians "get away with" calling the Bible the good book?

Seems to me that that the answer is to both the questions.

I am only responding to the claims of the Christian movement by presenting evidence from their bible that contradicts their claims (which seem to be accepted by too many people without critique for my taste).
Let me give you a possible definition for ‘get away with’: “Not to get caught or criticised for claiming something contrary to the evidence”. Well, at least I am presenting some evidence.
However, I find it somewhat tiresome to carry-on dissecting the semantics of “get away with” and diverting thereby from the main topic.

May be, you can answer me a question: What good can we learn from the bible section I have quoted (Numbers 13:15-17). How can this be reconciled with the claim that the bible is a good book for moral guidance.

 

[McBell]

I am only responding to the claims of the Christian movement by presenting evidence from their bible that contradicts their claims (which seem to be accepted by too many people without critique for my taste).
Let me give you a possible definition for ‘get away with’: “Not to get caught or criticised for claiming something contrary to the evidence”. Well, at least I am presenting some evidence.
However, I find it somewhat tiresome to carry-on dissecting the semantics of “get away with” and diverting thereby from the main topic.

ROTFLMAO
The main topic of the thread, as far as I can tell, is basically you whining about the Bible.
Interestingly enough, despite your claims above, you have not presented anything that has not ALREADY been brought up on this very forum.

May be, you can answer me a question: What good can we learn from the bible section I have quoted (Numbers 13:15-17). How can this be reconciled with the claim that the bible is a good book for moral guidance.

I see.
So in short, you do not want to answer my question, but you want me to answer yours..?

 

[Dano]

ROTFLMAO
The main topic of the thread, as far as I can tell, is basically you whining about the Bible.
Interestingly enough, despite your claims above, you have not presented anything that has not ALREADY been brought up on this very forum.


I see.
So in short, you do not want to answer my question, but you want me to answer yours..?

It’s alright if you fancy yourself as a bit of a devils advocate. I would even appreciate it, if it contributed to the discussion. However you seem to fail to understand my replies and keep going on about the same thing.
If you want to discuss the deep meaning of ‘get away with’ maybe you should open your own tread?
I am thoroughly fed up with your infantile posts and will not waste more time replying to them.

Keep on roling ..... and gafy

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Reading the bible it becomes obvious that it is full of racism, injustice, murder, genocide, etc, either directly committed or ordered by god.

What does that have to do with this?

Just to mention one passage from Numbers 13:15-17: 31:15 Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 31:16 Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor – which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 31:17 Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. 31:18 But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.

I find it odd that as your opening example, you'd pull out a passage where Moses relies on his own judgement to decide what to do and imply that it's an example of God ordering people to do evil things.

In Exodus, Moses murders a man. Do you assume that the Bible's telling you that God commanded that, too?

 

[elisheba]

Reading the bible it becomes obvious that it is full of racism, injustice, murder, genocide, etc, either directly committed or ordered by god.

Just to mention one passage from Numbers 13:15-17: 31:15 Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 31:16 Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor – which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 31:17 Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. 31:18 But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.

How can anybody get away with calling it the good book?

There is evidence pointing to the idea that these people were infected with sexually transmitted diseases..which would have destroyed many nations. Remember, although European explorers brought 7 different diseases to the New World, native Americans only gave them one...but it was Syphilis. So, even though it was long ago and people lived in a natural and apparently healthier environment...STDs existed ( but there were no cures ).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is evidence pointing to the idea that these people were infected with sexually transmitted diseases..which would have destroyed many nations.

Well, there's an unsupported claim if I've ever seen one.

 

[Tyr]

^couldnt have said it better myself, I would very much like to see this evidence elisheba.

 

[Dano]

What does that have to do with this?


I find it odd that as your opening example, you'd pull out a passage where Moses relies on his own judgement to decide what to do and imply that it's an example of God ordering people to do evil things.

In Exodus, Moses murders a man. Do you assume that the Bible's telling you that God commanded that, too?

In post 34, I have briefly summarized the context to Numbers 31:14-18, which strongly indicates that Moses was following direct orders by God:

In 25:16 God orders genocide of the Midianites: ‘kill them’!

and orders to ...take vengeance on the Midianites in 31:1

In 31:14-18 Moses carries out this order (although he should probably have killed the virgin girls as well). If the order had been against God’s will, Moses would be dead meat (God does not mess about).
Instead God demands his share of the loot in 31:28 and takes 32 virgin girls for himself ... in my understanding, this is more than just condoning the slaughter (which would be bad enough).
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Incidentally Moses is also one of the main founder of the religion and highly revered in his own right.

Luckily, this is all a fictitious story, but I wouldn’t recommend it for moral guidance.


Anyway there are many more examples in the bible of God ordering or committing hideous crimes as I mentioned already: god promotes or commits genocide (Numb. 31:15; Deut. 20: 16-18, great flood, Joshua, etc.), murder (killing of many Israelites during Exodus, Egyptian first born, Numb.15:32 and many of the other unjust laws), human sacrifice (Judges11:39) and animal sacrifices (all of Leviticus), unjust and ridiculous laws (Leviticus, Numbers) etc. ,etc. And the final grand slaughter in Revelations.

And just a word about spreading sexual disease: Even if there was evidence to that effect (although there is not even evidence for Moses existence) – would this justify genocide of a whole nation? Could god not just have taken the disease away?

 

[rusra02]

God's command through Moses to kill the women of Midian reflected His concern for the spiritual welfare of his people. The Midianites and Moabites, at Balaam’s advice, cunningly used their women to induce thousands of Israelite males to become involved in sexual immorality and idolatry in connection with Baal of Peor. These females brought to the camp of Israel would have posed a continuing spiritual danger, since they undoubtedly were contaminated by the worship of Baal and the immorality that was part of Baal worship.
Instead of finding fault with God, consider that He is the Creator, the Sovereign of the universe. As such, God has every right to determine whether any of his creatures lives or dies. But He also always acts in perfect justice and love. God specifically commanded the Israelites not to attack Moab. Moab started the hostilities between them and Israel and Jehovah decisively gave Israel the victory.
Jehovah's bringing destruction on his enemies is absolutely just and right. Consider the rivers of innocent blood that have been shed in these days, often by persons professing to serve the God of the Bible. Consider the armies of sex perverts that make slaves of innocent poor ones and commit heinous acts againt them.
Is it unjust for God to destroy the wicked and bring peace to those who love him? Of course not. He did this in the Flood of Noah's day, and he will do this again in the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of at Matthew 24:21.
“Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty?" (Job 40:1) To do so is like a toddler telling a college math professor he knows more than the professor does about advanced mathematics.

 

[Commoner]

God's command through Moses to kill the women of Midian reflected His concern for the spiritual welfare of his people. The Midianites and Moabites, at Balaam’s advice, cunningly used their women to induce thousands of Israelite males to become involved in sexual immorality and idolatry in connection with Baal of Peor. These females brought to the camp of Israel would have posed a continuing spiritual danger, since they undoubtedly were contaminated by the worship of Baal and the immorality that was part of Baal worship.
Instead of finding fault with God, consider that He is the Creator, the Sovereign of the universe. As such, God has every right to determine whether any of his creatures lives or dies. But He also always acts in perfect justice and love. God specifically commanded the Israelites not to attack Moab. Moab started the hostilities between them and Israel and Jehovah decisively gave Israel the victory.
Jehovah's bringing destruction on his enemies is absolutely just and right. Consider the rivers of innocent blood that have been shed in these days, often by persons professing to serve the God of the Bible. Consider the armies of sex perverts that make slaves of innocent poor ones and commit heinous acts againt them.
Is it unjust for God to destroy the wicked and bring peace to those who love him? Of course not. He did this in the Flood of Noah's day, and he will do this again in the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of at Matthew 24:21.
“Should there be any contending of a faultfinder with the Almighty?" (Job 40:1) To do so is like a toddler telling a college math professor he knows more than the professor does about advanced mathematics.

 

[elisheba]

In post 34, I have briefly summarized the context to Numbers 31:14-18, which strongly indicates that Moses was following direct orders by God:

In 25:16 God orders genocide of the Midianites: ‘kill them’!

and orders to ...take vengeance on the Midianites in 31:1

In 31:14-18 Moses carries out this order (although he should probably have killed the virgin girls as well). If the order had been against God’s will, Moses would be dead meat (God does not mess about).
Instead God demands his share of the loot in 31:28 and takes 32 virgin girls for himself ... in my understanding, this is more than just condoning the slaughter (which would be bad enough).
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Incidentally Moses is also one of the main founder of the religion and highly revered in his own right.

Luckily, this is all a fictitious story, but I wouldn’t recommend it for moral guidance.


Anyway there are many more examples in the bible of God ordering or committing hideous crimes as I mentioned already: god promotes or commits genocide (Numb. 31:15; Deut. 20: 16-18, great flood, Joshua, etc.), murder (killing of many Israelites during Exodus, Egyptian first born, Numb.15:32 and many of the other unjust laws), human sacrifice (Judges11:39) and animal sacrifices (all of Leviticus), unjust and ridiculous laws (Leviticus, Numbers) etc. ,etc. And the final grand slaughter in Revelations.

And just a word about spreading sexual disease: Even if there was evidence to that effect (although there is not even evidence for Moses existence) – would this justify genocide of a whole nation? Could god not just have taken the disease away?

What's the point of taking the disease away - they would re-infect themselves and others. It's not just disease - there were child sacrifices going on also.

 

[elisheba]

Well, there's an unsupported claim if I've ever seen one.

Check out the teachings of J.Vernon McGee and also do a websearch of The Columbian (referring to Columbus) Biological Exchange (referring to diseases) to see the existence of STDs in native populations that had no strict laws against promiscuity. The Bible talks about the evil practices of the nations that were to be destroyed.

 

[Dano]

A lot what has been said seems to assumes that there is a god and the writings in the bible are true, without error and the words of that biblical god. It also seems to assume that this god is always right (although he/she decided to kill nearly all life in the great flood, presumably because of a mistake).

You could justify anything (genocide, murder, rape, enslavement, etc.) by claiming it is right because god commanded or committed it (and it is beyond our understanding?). I hope there are not many people who would be happy with this way of thinking.

As a human being I would strongly object to any god (or devil?) idea that appears to promote and commit such hideous crimes and I would certainly not choose it as my moral reference.

Luckily people seem to have some innate sense of morality and rationality and don’t need a god or the bible to tell them what is good or evil. After all, the bible was written by ignorant ancient people and there is little reason that it should be of much importance to us now.

p.s.

I am always amazed how people can know what a god was thinking or intending.