This life is a test. We should taste good things and bad things in this earthly life.
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why do bad things happen to good people?
- Thread starter natasha levchenko
- Start date
This life is a test. We should taste good things and bad things in this earthly life.
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
I knew it. It's all about cajun vs. Yankee cookin'.
Only one path may lead to deliverance. Otherwise, ya'll are just toast.
This goes to the point here, I think:
If God is in control, then he's responsible. If God's not responsible, then he's not in control.
As an atheist, I have no problem with the idea that there isn't a God overseeing everything. I'd be surprised to hear this view from a theist, though.
Which is it? Is God not responsible, or has he done everything with a reason and a purpose? You can't have it both ways.
If God is in control, then he's responsible. If God's not responsible, then he's not in control.
As an atheist, I have no problem with the idea that there isn't a God overseeing everything. I'd be surprised to hear this view from a theist, though.
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
I'm still stuck on the notion that either "reason" or "purpose" MUST be divined by some "god" or supernatural entity of causation.
Why?
Is not "reason" the capacity to see beyond mere superstition and myth's?
If we can, for a moment, eliminate any "god", do we then presume that our species is incapable or either employing reason or purpose amongst ourselves?
Do we accept being that inherently stupid, or helpless, as a default answer?
Why?
Is not "reason" the capacity to see beyond mere superstition and myth's?
If we can, for a moment, eliminate any "god", do we then presume that our species is incapable or either employing reason or purpose amongst ourselves?
Do we accept being that inherently stupid, or helpless, as a default answer?
I hope you won't mind me attempting to answer your question since the question was not directed at me. I apologize in advance if you wanted an answer only from him.
The answer isn't as simple, i'm afraid. I'll attempt to answer and i hope i will succeed in trying to explain it. God is in control of everything, the good things which happen to us and also the bad things.
In Islam, we believe that God has made certain policies and rules for this universe. He allowed goodness and badness to happen to human beings in this earthly life for many reasons. We know some of these reasons and we are unaware of the majority of reasons.
That's why when say that it is within God control that good and bad things, that's because he allowed it to happen to us as a test, and i believe what Smart_Guy meant by saying we shouldn't put responsibility on God is that some people blame God for what happen to them. Maybe he meant they should deal with it as part of this life rather than complaining and blaming God. I hope he will correct me if i misunderstood him.
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
It's not really about what you accept and what you don't accept. If someone was a human being, he can't simply *reject* this fact and argue that he is a bird. You can accept and doesn't accept only when you have Godly attributes like creating and controlling your life A to Z. You must be able to live forever for instance just because you want to, or decide to get born or not to into this life. Since you were born out of your control based on certain universe system then you must admit you are not in control, and that your task shouldn't be whether you should accept or not accept but rather about understanding the laws which govern your life and universe as a whole.
Too bad for those born w/o your standards of "taste".
Maybe that is a lesson too...
We Muslims believe that all human beings are born with innate knowledge of their Creator, then the environment where they were raised into will shape this knowledge whether in accordance with this innate knowledge or the other way around.
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
OK. But allow us all to bear in mind here that the operative word IS "belief".
"Belief" is a fine thing, but a useless aspect to employ when trying to determine "fact". Such remains the unpleasant revelations borne of scientific inquiry and experimentation.
Not everyone may agree, but you just may be wrong,
"Belief" still remains what it is... a wish that your heart makes.
I agree it's just a belief, and that i may be wrong, but you have to admit that there is a need to understand more than simply accept or not accept things. science help us to observe, analyze, and conclude, but it's not perfect. Science is just an instrument and a tool which human beings use based on their developing understanding of how to use it.
Do we understand everything? no. Do we know everything, absolutely not. We just try our best to be more and more knowledgeable and we may never be able to know everything any time soon. Maybe future generations will be better than us in understanding and getting to know what we couldn't, right? then how about us? should we restrict our imaginations to what current science instrument, tools, methods, theories can do for us, or we should be open to anything and everything?
EDIT:
While reading the Quran now, i came across these verses ...
They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world: but of the End of things they are heedless.
Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny their meeting with their Lord (at the Resurrection)!
Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they tilled the soil and populated it in greater numbers than these have done: there came to them their Messengers with Clear (Signs). (Which they rejected, to their own destruction): it was not Allah who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls. (Quran 30:7-9)
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s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
To be fair to you and I, there is no claim within science or scientific understanding that EVER claims a perfect "understanding", or perfection itself. Skepticism is the essence of doubt and asking ever more questions. What we do claim, and seek at least some solace from elemental doubt is probabilities.
Sure, the Earth "could be" flat...but is that the best or most likely explanation available with the provided evidences?.
Um. no.
When current evidence virtually proves that the cosmos may exist utterly absent any need or cause of a supernatural being or entity to "light the match" as primal causation...well...the Earth could still be flat of course...or even Allah
Is doubt the utmost goal or it's just way for us to reach to something else?
Sometimes people are so occupied by skepticism that they forget their reason for adopting it on the first place.
Sure, the Earth "could be" flat...but is that the best or most likely explanation available with the provided evidences?.
Um. no.
When current evidence virtually proves that the cosmos may exist utterly absent any need or cause of a supernatural being or entity to "light the match" as primal causation...well...the Earth could still be flat of course...or even Allah
if you were living in the past, you would have thought earth was flat too, isn't it?
Imagine science at that time couldn't prove the earth was not flat, you wouldn't have known the truth back then. It's the same now, there are things which science has not discovered yet, which future generations will know about, but will be too late for you to know about. You got my point now?
God in both responsible (as an willed it, and only the weak at heart blame Him) for it and He's done it for a reason. Actually, I can't see how either can even stand alone!
He is in control but we are not in place to question whither He's suppose to do something about it or not (pointing at the babysitting idea from before). God oversees things in the sense that everything has been already written down as fate. We don't know the future so we work for it, and once something happens we get over it with strong will because it was written and destined to happen.
And, so far I only had good experience with atheists. They seem to be more open to reasoning and listening to opinions than theists in my experience.
natasha levchenko
Member
God does not cuse bad things to happen neither he tests anyone by inciting to behave badly. There are reasons,and the first one is ''time and unexpected events'';
The second reason: part of the blame for wickedness lies with humans. Notice how the Bible describes a process that can lead to harmful acts. “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.” (James 1:14, 15)
An the last reason,the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says 1 John 5:19
The second reason: part of the blame for wickedness lies with humans. Notice how the Bible describes a process that can lead to harmful acts. “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.” (James 1:14, 15)
An the last reason,the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says 1 John 5:19
ScuzManiac
Active Member
The same reason good things can happen to bad people.
It's all chance, timing, luck, whatever you want to call it.
It's all chance, timing, luck, whatever you want to call it.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Your own expectations are to blame for these ideas. Whatever happens in the world happens and is real. Whatever you think should or should not happen is entirely and only in your head. It is an illusion.
People believe that they are hurt by the world. Really, though, it's the expectations and assumptions that the project onto the world that hurt them. H.G. Wells is a famous example. He died very bitter, having disavowed himself of humanity. He believed that the world should lean more toward science than religion. It didn't. So he became quite bitter about that. But it wasn't anything the world had done that caused this. The world just does as it does. It was the expectations that he had of the world that caused him to become bitter.
Some might ask why it's so unreasonable to have expectations. A valid question. The reason is because is that just because you have expectations of people or things, it does not follow that those expectations will be reflected. Indeed, it is almost certain that most of the time those expectations wont be reflected. And so you'll just end up in more grief than good.
I am known for being a supporter of the idea that those who have the power to act have the responsibility to act. And that the fact a particular god is alleged to have the power and doesn't act is immoral. Of course, I don't have any expectations of god because I know that such things are fantasy fiction. But some people do believe in god. And they get terribly upset when they see children die of cancer and ask 'why doesn't god do anything? Is he evil?' But it's not anything god has done that has caused their distress, it is the expectations that project onto the idea of god that has.
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s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Obfuscation. Does your inquiry offer a definitive "answer" or no?
Sometimes, yes. Most often, not really. Not at all.
A fair question. It would indeed rest upon what part of the world I was informed to understand/believe. Some parts of this world "knew: centuries beforehand that our world was a sphere. In other places, the church would dictate (and enforce) science, or heresy.
Again (since you choose to evade any specificity in time), other existent and contemporary cultures readily enough in identifiable time frames of understanding remained fairly well assured of their accuracies of informed speculations concluded that our planet was NOT flat. Sailing on the seas worked fairly well enough.
However, it is silly, even inane to conclude, then again construe, that doubt (or remaining question) is equitable to utter ignorance, or wild guess. It's just not. It has never been so.
Um, no?
Is it your only "point" to be offered that I may not "know" everything, in the entirety of the complete complexity of the cosmos, before I die?
Really?
Is that supposed to be scary?
Is that fear to be best answered by a belief in some invisible benevolent space entity?
Or might I instead retain some confidence and (*gasp*) hope that a prevailing part of our entire species might actually seek beyond superstition and fear for greater insights and enlightenment's that exist over that next hill?
Or should a species evolved to employ rational thinking just hide under a rock and just pray for some divine "deliverance" from cave bears and stone knives?
So God is not responsible for the actions of humans? This implies one of two things, AFAICT:
- the creation of humanity was not one of God's actions.
- people aren't responsible for their actions generally.
Which one is your position?
Also, are you arguing that no responsibility for human suffering falls on God at all? I mean, I can see how some things are within our influence (though I also don't think that responsibility is a zero-sum game, so saying that we're responsible for something doesn't absolve God of his responsibility), but some sources of suffering aren't. For instance, take choking on food: are you arguing that human sin is somehow to blame for the fact that we use the same tube to breathe and eat?
Call_of_the_Wild
Well-Known Member
Why do good things happen to bad people?