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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

joelr

Well-Known Member
David wrote I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. He didn't describe heaven simply as where God dwells, and this was before the Persians.


This isn;t the same as all dead members go to heaven???????????


"David desired to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of his life, because he wanted to look on God's beauty and to inquire in His temple. During his time, the temple of God dwells only in tents and usually they move it from one place to another. Inside the temple, the ark of the Covenant can be found."
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That has nothing to do with where the myths came from.
What you said about god I heard the same from my friends in Islam, my GF who was Hindu, another GF in Islam, my Scientologist friends and it does not mean your imaginary friends are real.

It detracts from Christianity being borrowed from myths that attracted gentiles. Pagan ideas of heaven were popular because they didn't involve us needing a Savior, but Christianity was always a narrow path.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
This isn;t the same as all dead members go to heaven???????????


"David desired to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of his life, because he wanted to look on God's beauty and to inquire in His temple. During his time, the temple of God dwells only in tents and usually they move it from one place to another. Inside the temple, the ark of the Covenant can be found."

The Bible not saying everyone goes to heaven is different from saying what David wrote was during or after Second Temple Judaism. What David wrote was before Second Temple Judaism.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member

Here's the exact quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,

Do you see the name jesus mentioned anywhere in there? And bear in mind this was written circa 120 CE 90 years after an event tacitus never even witnessed. Consequently it is pure hearsay.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
A demigod is a descendant of God, not God in the flesh. The other writers of the four gospels believe that Jesus is God. Those Bible verses are not self contradictions.


Demigod - " the offspring of a god and a mortal,"

The synoptic problem shows the other gospels used Mark as a source. We already went over this. It's just Mark and he's writing myths.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
This isn;t the same as all dead members go to heaven???????????


"David desired to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of his life, because he wanted to look on God's beauty and to inquire in His temple. During his time, the temple of God dwells only in tents and usually they move it from one place to another. Inside the temple, the ark of the Covenant can be found."

David was talking about heaven, not a temple or tent or the ark of the Covenant.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The Bible not saying everyone goes to heaven is different from saying what David wrote was during or after Second Temple Judaism. What David wrote was before Second Temple Judaism.


The Hebrew religion did not consider heaven as the home of the righteous dead. Then, after the invasion + a few centuries, they upgraded. ----------"Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29"


Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
David was talking about heaven, not a temple or tent or the ark of the Covenant.


So you don't know early Hebrew cosmology either?

Heaven was Gods temple in the firmament. It moved around. It wasn't like how it's thought of today???
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
David was talking about heaven, not a temple or tent or the ark of the Covenant.


Yes it was a tent back then?

"And when Moses descended with the Ten Commandments, they were placed in the ark, which was housed in a tent. That tent became known as the house of the Lord, and was the focus of worship in the early generations of the faithful. When King Solomon built the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant was moved into the new house of the Lord. In fact, most of the places in Scripture where the phrase “house of the Lord” is used it is meant as a descriptor for the Jerusalem Temple. But…what happens when there is no Temple?"
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
did you even read all of the things the Jews took after the invasion? There is ZERO doubt here that this is all mythology.
Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]

Heaven and hell were in the scriptures in the Psalms, which was before Second Temple Judaism.

The belief of soul and spirit was in the scriptures before Second Temple Judaism. It goes back to the verse in Genesis about God breathing life into Adam. The belief of the immortality of the soul existed in the Psalms. Daniel in Daniel 12:2 mentioned the resurrection of the dead and he never mentioned Persian influence. Hebrew thinkers were not the same people as the people who wrote the Bible. Genesis 2:1 mentions that Adam's soul originated from God and Genesis 3:19 mentions it returning to God. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis was before Second Temple Judaism.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It detracts from Christianity being borrowed from myths that attracted gentiles. Pagan ideas of heaven were popular because they didn't involve us needing a Savior, but Christianity was always a narrow path.
No all the pagan religions had a savior. Carriers essay details several who were before Jesus. People were baptized into th ecult and the savior resurrected and got them eternal life.

Nothing is detracted from Christianity because they are all fictional stories.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So you don't know early Hebrew cosmology either?

Heaven was Gods temple in the firmament. It moved around. It wasn't like how it's thought of today???

The Bible has a lot of progressive revelation with the concepts that it talks about.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Heaven and hell were in the scriptures in the Psalms, which was before Second Temple Judaism.

The belief of soul and spirit was in the scriptures before second temple Judaism. It goes back to the verse in Genesis about God breathing life into Adam. The belief of the immortality of the soul existed in the Psalms. Daniel in Daniel 12:2 mentioned the resurrection of the dead and he never mentioned Persian influence. Hebrew thinkers were not the same people as the people who wrote the Bible. Genesis 2:1 mentions that Adam's soul originated from God and Genesis 3:19 mentions it returning to God. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis was before Second Temple Judaism.

Yes Heaven was mentioned as a place where God dwells. It was not yet the Persian version.

I literally cannot believe you expect the Jewish scripture to actually mention another religion they are taking ideas from??????

What happens is a Jewish "prophet" one day says "I'm getting a communication from God, I must go pray......." then he comes back and says "Yahweh said we too are getting a savior, ours will be the true savior....."

And so on. It's all B.S,. But they don't CREDIT other religions??

Does Noahs ark credit the Epic of Gilamesh? NO?!
Does the creation narrative credit the Mesopotamian myths it closely follows? NO!?!?!
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No all the pagan religions had a savior. Carriers essay details several who were before Jesus. People were baptized into th ecult and the savior resurrected and got them eternal life.

Nothing is detracted from Christianity because they are all fictional stories.

Quetzalcoatl did not die on the cross for the sins of people. Is Jesus A Knock-Off Of Pagan Gods? 15 “Dying & Rising” Pagan Savior Gods Debunked | Reasons for Jesus

Was represented by three crosses, one larger and two smaller, and was depicted as bearing the cross as a burden, and with nail holes in his feet. The closest we get to this in pre-Columbian evidence is in the Codex Borgia (20) with a larger scene in which Quetzalcoatl is having his heart extracted by two other deities.

Quetzalcoatl is then “taken to the underworld and to a ball court,” and is next seen on a “cruciform device” (in the shape of a X, not a T), “with five little images of Nanahuatzin, the dead and cooked god of lechery and the evening sun, emerging from his four limbs and his heart.” Diaz and Rodgers note one interpretation of this scene as Quetzalcoatl transforming into Xolotl-Nanahuatzin.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That has nothing to do with where the myths came from.
What you said about god I heard the same from my friends in Islam, my GF who was Hindu, another GF in Islam, my Scientologist friends and it does not mean your imaginary friends are real.

What was convenient about the early Christians believing that God was their Savior and being persecuted for their faith and not recanting? Sin separating us from God are not beliefs that exist in Islam and Hinduism and Scientology.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member


Hohly crud.
Dying for sins was a Jewish spin. Dying on a cross is just one way a savior god can die. Quetzalcoatl isn't even mentioned in Carrier's article? You just debunked nothing?
I cannot believe I have to say this again.
It's a demigod who goes through a passion, dies and is resurrected and gets members into the afterlife. That is the basic model. It's different in each myth.
It's already been established that Jesus is just another dying/rising savior and was not the first in that region.


"No. The only plausible reason for why some Jews ever came up with a Jewish dying-and-rising savior god in precisely that region and era, is that everyone else had; it was so popular and influential, so fashionable and effective, it was inevitable the idea would seep into some Jewish consciousness, and erupt onto the scene of “inspired” revolutionizing of a perceived-to-be-corrupted faith. They Judaized it, of course. Jesus is as different from Osiris as Osiris is from Dionysus or Inanna or Romulus or Zalmoxis. The differences are the Jewish tweaks. Just as the Persian Zoroastrian system of messianism, apocalypticism, worldwide resurrection, an evil Satan at war with God, and a future heaven and hell effecting justice as eternal fates for all, was Judaized when they were imported into Judaism. None of those ideas existed in Judaism before that (and you won’t find them in any part of the Old Testament written before the Persian conquest). No one claimed they were “corrupting” Judaism with those pagan ideas (even though in fact they were). They simply claimed these new ideas were all Jewish. Ordained and communicated by God, through inspired scripture and revelation. The Christians, did exactly the same thing."
 
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