MNoBody
Well-Known Member
and "god" help ya if you were born on this barbaric planet... every country is the same in that regard, just some excel in barbarism and have made a high art of it, others are less refined in their barbaric ways....
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Why did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor?
- Thread starter Stevicus
- Start date
Except for Americans, of course. We're the only righteous people on the planet, and all those "others" are barbarians who want to kill our young men, make slaves of our children, rape our wives and daughters, etc.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
aren't 'team divisions', abstractions taken way too far and too seriously?
[assuming you were being sarcastic]
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
I think during war the soldier must see them this way. Must dehumanize them. Else killing would be much more difficult. The Japanese viewed the Marines as devils and rapist's etc. Note the many Japanese women who tossed their children over the cliffs on some of these islands. And then jumped themselves to avoid these Marine beasts.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
I don't think that either the racist propaganda inflicted upon soldiers and civilians during WW2, or the atrocious conduct of the Japanese and German armies, should be seen as aspirational. Although I do agree that during war, xenophobia and racism tend to become increasingly accepted among the population.
The word "barbarian" itself was coined by the Greeks, as a term for foreigners untouched by, so they believed, their superior culture.
That is certainly a common motif of domestic propaganda among the populations of imperialistic powers. The British Empire believed its conquering armies to bring civilization to the world, and the Chinese emperors were certain that they were the only ones ruling over civilized peoples.
The word "barbarian" itself was coined by the Greeks, as a term for foreigners untouched by, so they believed, their superior culture.
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aren't 'team divisions', abstractions taken way too far and too seriously?
[assuming you were being sarcastic]
Yes, I was definitely being sarcastic.
That may be necessary for soldiers in combat, although I have no first-hand experience with that, so I'll defer to professional opinion on that matter.
However, this was a question about the motives of those who ruled the Empire of Japan. I don't think history can be told in such blatant, extreme ways, depicting epic fights of good vs. evil with some kind of comic book "supervillains" and "superheroes." Real life doesn't work that way. If we see them as humans, then we must assume that they have the ability to formulate rational thoughts and that there must have been some sort of rational motive for their actions.
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
It is not necessary for soldiers to dehumanize their enemy. I may be, in fact, a major source of trauma and mental damage to them.
Soldiers are people like everyone else. And it is cruel to twist people into monsters, however much it may benefit one's militaristic urges.
Soldiers are people like everyone else. And it is cruel to twist people into monsters, however much it may benefit one's militaristic urges.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
I figured so, chat boxes do not convey nuances all that well
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Yet we do the same with the Japanese empire of WW2. And with the Germans and Hitler in WW2. And with South Africa Apartheid. And with that super evil Southern government of the War between the States. The Russians during the Cold war were called by us the evil empire.
Of course it is not true. There is evil in all governments. But when that government becomes your enemy, they are the evil ones.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well, as I said, I have no personal, first-hand experience in the military, so I can't really say one way or the other. I do recall seeing various examples of a quote from Admiral Halsey, exhorting his men to kill Japanese (although he did so using racial crudities which would be unacceptable today).
But this thread wasn't really about that anyway. I was thinking more in terms of the overall strategies and whether it was the right move to make. The discussion had pretty much run its course anyway.
Yes, I would say that you're correct about how the US viewed the Japanese during WW2. I mentioned in a previous post a sign that quoted Admiral Halsey and was pretty disdainful of the Japanese. I would point out that I had an uncle who was a decorated Marine who fought against the Japanese in the Pacific, but after the war, he developed a very keen interest in Japanese art and culture. He made several trips to Japan and often frequented the Japanese-American Friendship Center when he lived in California. So, even if he ever dehumanized them (and I'm not sure he did), he most certainly "re-humanized" them after the war.
Not sure if Americans saw Germans the same way. My dad told me that some German POWs worked on our aunt's farm in Indiana. I guess they were okay. My dad said that she was told not to give them anything to eat, but she did anyway.
We never went to war with South Africa, and it wasn't until the 1980s that we even made a peep about Apartheid.
As for the North and South in the War Between the States, I think there was some mutual antipathy and hatred, but not with everyone. A lot of Union and Confederate generals served with each other and fought side by side before the war, and it was considered a war of brother against brother. It was a bit too complicated to use the term "dehumanize" when talking about the relationship between North and South in American history. Although it could be said that it's related to contemporary politics and how both sides try to dehumanize the other.
And yes, I think the Russians were probably also dehumanized during the Cold War, as were the Chinese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Cubans, etc. I guess they saw all Americans as "Yankees," even those from the South.
I've heard that the Japanese attacked America due to economic warfare and goading from the US:
How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan's Attack on Pearl Harbor | Robert Higgs
How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan's Attack on Pearl Harbor | Robert Higgs
Shad
Veteran Member
Japan has no right to US products. Someone not selling you something is not provoking anything.
Whatever.
Shad
Veteran Member
Great rebuttal...
Use logic. If you cut off a people from accessing something important to their welfare or economy, they may well view it as a right to attack you. Consider the sanctions we put on Iraq and Iran, or the sanctions Israelis put on the Palestinians. If you can't get food or medical supplies because of a sanction, what retaliations do you think the people will view as allowable?
This is really irrelevant, however, as the OP just asked "why" they did it and I provided a possible reason why. You're talking about if they had the "right" to do it, which has nothing to do with the OP.
Shad
Veteran Member
Again Japan has no right to US products.
The war was not fought to gain access to US goods. It was to prevent the US from acting militarily while Japan pulled a land grab.
The sanctions have guideline which both can take to lift those sanctions. If Iran and Iraq do not want to take those options that is the problem of their leadership.
I was addressing your link.
I'm not interested in your US propaganda. The OP asked why Japan might attack the US and I provided an answer as to why they might do it. That's it.
Shad
Veteran Member
Im not American. Try again
And I attacked that answer for it's flaws. Maybe you should have read your own link and considered what it said before linking it here.