Why did Jesus Die for us?

[idea]

11 pages, is it too late to jump in?

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place.

Actually, God did not make us... God found us, took pity on us, and instituted laws through which we could advance if we so choose. The word "create" in the Bible is a bit of a mistranslation, bara is better translated as "transform" not "create"... God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

New Testament | Romans 8:15..the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption is the process where someone takes care of someone they did not create....

PM me if you want more info, I can show you lots of scriptures that support:
a.) we were not created, but are rather being transformed
b.) we are eternal, with no beginning, just like God.

I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

consider this scenereo – it’s from the Civil War.

“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”


So the point is, the reason the 19yo was pardoned, and why everyone was OK with that, was because the little mother had given a sacrifice. It wasn’t about the 19yo anymore, it was about the little mother – about her husband and sons who had all given their life. If there had been no sacrifice, pardoning the 19 would not have been fair, it would not have been just. It isn’t just that one person’s children should die, while another’s live. God has to uphold justice – He has to maintain law and order. If law/justice is not upheld, the whole thing crumbles and falls into anarchy. God upholds justice, and He sent His Son to uphold mercy. We forgive one another because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Even if they don’t deserve it, to say “I don’t forgive you” is to say “the atonement wasn’t good enough.” Like in the Civil war story - It’s not about the 19yo anymore, it’s about the little mother and her sacrifice – and no one is going to question her sacrifice, or the 19yo’s pardon as being unjust.

 

[Renji]

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

" For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ccording to the scriptures." I Cor 15:3-4

 

[Faithfreedom]

very glad that you did jumped in.

Thanks!

 

[idea]

very glad that you did jumped in.

Thanks!

more info on our premortal life (where our spirits existed before we were born on Earth)

see: Hebrew Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. "

see also:
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph
"
God is not the Creator, claims academic

The notion of God as the Creator is wrong, claims a top academic, who believes the Bible has been wrongly translated for thousands of years. ...


Does the bible teach that God made everything? I do not think that it does.
John 1:
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Does not say God and Jesus were alone, nor does it say they created everything -
“That was made” – IF it was made, He made it. However, some things are not made…
and “made” does not mean ex-nihlo…

God did not create everything. God did not create Himself. God did not create evil. He is all powerful – what He is surrounded by He can control, but there is no need that He created it from nothing… He is forming, organizing, reforming… If He created it there would be no need for reform. No evil, no lost souls.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter did not make the clay – he only forms what already exists…

Does it say God created man from nothing? It does not –
Gen 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Formed – is different than created from nothingness – formed, organized, changed what was already there… then “breathed” life into Adam, not created, breathed it in, placed it in….

There are actually 2 different accounts of the creation in Gen, Chapter 1 gives one account, chapter 2 gives another account in which the creative days are given a different order. Here is chapter 2, in which Adam is created (7) before the garden of Eden (vs 8). Atheists use this as one example where the Bible contradicts itself. I see it as describing two different creative periods, one in heaven “the generations of the heavens” and one on earth - seems pretty clear that chapter 2 is discussing formation/organization in heaven, before spirits were placed in the Earth… see vs 5. … first He forms Adam’s spirit, then He places the spirit in a formed body in Eden…

4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Job 38: 4 Where wast thou…
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are sons and daughters of God –
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

we were there – we shouted for joy.

Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

Zech 12:1 …the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

He “formed” our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our “Heavenly” Father because He is literally the father of our spirit… spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.

There are some other accounts of our premortal life, what happened there, how Satan fell, etc. etc. if you are interested

 

[ellenjanuary]

11 pages, is it too late to jump in?



Actually, God did not make us... God found us, took pity on us, and instituted laws through which we could advance if we so choose. The word "create" in the Bible is a bit of a mistranslation, bara is better translated as "transform" not "create"... God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

New Testament | Romans 8:15..the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption is the process where someone takes care of someone they did not create....

PM me if you want more info, I can show you lots of scriptures that support:
a.) we were not created, but are rather being transformed
b.) we are eternal, with no beginning, just like God.



consider this scenereo – it’s from the Civil War.

“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”


So the point is, the reason the 19yo was pardoned, and why everyone was OK with that, was because the little mother had given a sacrifice. It wasn’t about the 19yo anymore, it was about the little mother – about her husband and sons who had all given their life. If there had been no sacrifice, pardoning the 19 would not have been fair, it would not have been just. It isn’t just that one person’s children should die, while another’s live. God has to uphold justice – He has to maintain law and order. If law/justice is not upheld, the whole thing crumbles and falls into anarchy. God upholds justice, and He sent His Son to uphold mercy. We forgive one another because of Jesus’ qual sacrifice. Even if they don’t deserve it, to say “I don’t forgive you” is to say “the atonement wasn’t good enough.” Like in the Civil war story - It’s not about the 19yo anymore, it’s about the little mother and her sacrifice – and no one is going to question her sacrifice, or the 19yo’s pardon as being unjust.

Did I mention that I love you, oh "Bringer of the Tessarene J?" I may have to further correspond with you, as it is part of my agenda that Biblical God is more "engineer god" than "creator god." We know something about engineering; we still don't know jack about creation. In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth (a duality) is exactly equal to : in the beginning, there was a point of infinite density and zero volume (a duality). Either god hid his act with or unknowability or a quark-gluon plasma. We don't knowjack until we share some understanding.

 

[idea]

Did I mention that I love you, oh "Bringer of the Tessarene J?" I may have to further correspond with you, as it is part of my agenda that Biblical God is more "engineer god" than "creator god." We know something about engineering; we still don't know jack about creation. In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth (a duality) is exactly equal to : in the beginning, there was a point of infinite density and zero volume (a duality). Either god hid his act with or unknowability or a quark-gluon plasma. We don't knowjack until we share some understanding.

Yes, He's an engineer, and quite an engineer. All that is good/pure/peaceful/light has been engineered by Him. All that is dark is simply the untouched matter that has not allowed the potter's hand to touch it yet.

duality is needed... opposition is needed...

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first–born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no apurpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the bjustice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is ano law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not bthere is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and alearning; for there is a God, and he hath bcreated all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be cacted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal apurposes in the end of man, after he had bcreated our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the cfowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the dforbidden efruit in fopposition to the gtree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should aact for himself. Wherefore, man could not bact for himself save it should be that he was centiced by the one or the other.
2 Nephi2:11 - 16
(create as in form, not as in ex-nihlo...
DC93:29 Man was also in the abeginning with God. bIntelligence, or the clight of dtruth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that asphere in which God has placed it, to bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man...

our agency is proof that we are eternal... if we had a beginning, everything we do could be traced back to how we were created, we would be puppets. Only uncreated beings with no beginning have agency... we are not puppets.


Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
-William Wordsworth, “Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood,” in The Oxford Book of English Verse: 1250–1900, ed. Arthur Quiller-Couch (1939), 628

 

[ellenjanuary]

Idea, you alright in my book. I have a "quantum theoretical interpretation" based upon the first thing god said - let there be light - and us hearing - particle/wave duality....

For anybody who may "think they know something" about "god" and "light'" here's a little factoid for ya: visible light composes one octillionth of the electromagnetic spectrum. One octilillionth - I have no actual conception of such a number - and I ain't afraid to tell ya.

 

[Volgin]

I never said that [2:228] you quoted is wrong. I was trying to explain you what it actually means. In the Holy Quran there is a complete chapter relating women. If you go and read that, you will understand what islam thinks about women. Every day there are a lot of people are converting to Islam, and more of them are women. Why are they coming towards Islam, did they find anything good for them here? Surely, whatever you do, you think about your advantage in doing that.
The Holy Quran does not uses such a term like sex slaves. It just talked about slaves. During the advent of Islam there were a lot of slaves. They were set free by muslim leaders who paid that person who would free a slave. "however those who seek togo beyond that in lust are the ones who shall be the transgressors". This is [23:26]
I don't know where are you reading the Quran from. I'll write you more on this later. No long waiting now.

 

[Dan4reason]

11 pages, is it too late to jump in?



Actually, God did not make us... God found us, took pity on us, and instituted laws through which we could advance if we so choose. The word "create" in the Bible is a bit of a mistranslation, bara is better translated as "transform" not "create"... God is cleaning up a mess He did not create.

New Testament | Romans 8:15..the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

adoption is the process where someone takes care of someone they did not create....

PM me if you want more info, I can show you lots of scriptures that support:
a.) we were not created, but are rather being transformed
b.) we are eternal, with no beginning, just like God.



consider this scenereo – it’s from the Civil War.

“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”


So the point is, the reason the 19yo was pardoned, and why everyone was OK with that, was because the little mother had given a sacrifice. It wasn’t about the 19yo anymore, it was about the little mother – about her husband and sons who had all given their life. If there had been no sacrifice, pardoning the 19 would not have been fair, it would not have been just. It isn’t just that one person’s children should die, while another’s live. God has to uphold justice – He has to maintain law and order. If law/justice is not upheld, the whole thing crumbles and falls into anarchy. God upholds justice, and He sent His Son to uphold mercy. We forgive one another because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Even if they don’t deserve it, to say “I don’t forgive you” is to say “the atonement wasn’t good enough.” Like in the Civil war story - It’s not about the 19yo anymore, it’s about the little mother and her sacrifice – and no one is going to question her sacrifice, or the 19yo’s pardon as being unjust.

It sounds like you are arguing that sometimes there is no need for punishment in some situations even when the person deserves it. I do not see how this means that letting an innocent person be punished for our misdeeds is just.

 

[Starsoul]

Do christians believe that Jesus was God?

If so, How could God die on a cross? I mean is the Christian God considered dead, gone, finished by some human conspiracy?

 

[Pegg]

Do christians believe that Jesus was God?

If so, How could God die on a cross? I mean is the Christian God considered dead, gone, finished by some human conspiracy?

most christian churches do teach the trinity except for a handful (mormons, christadelphians, JW's, Unification church and a few others) ...but the early church certainly did not teach it, its not a doctrine you can find in the scriptures.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

I used to ask a similar question to you ...if God died, who resurrected him?

To my mind, the idea that he resurrected himself just didnt ring true. But all you really have to do is look at the history of where the idea originated in church doctrines to realize that its a big bag of baloney.

 

[Ahmed99]

----You can search useful accurate websites about different beliefs on this subject, Well though i had copied a few links down, but this thing wont let me sorry. But this is more of my views on Salvation and Jesus meaning that in, Islam my belief, One Cannot Die For One's Sins the only Means of Salvation is through Repentence to God (Allah in Arabic meaning "One God").





For a Muslim, the purpose of life is to live in a way that is pleasing to Allah so that one may gain Paradise. It is believed that at puberty, an account of each person's deeds is opened, and this will be used at the Day of Judgment to determine his eternal fate. The Qur'an also suggests a doctrine of divine predestination.
The Muslim doctrine of salvation is that unbelievers (kuffar, literally "those who are ungrateful") and sinners will be condemned, but genuine repentance results in Allah's forgiveness and entrance into Paradise upon death.
The Qur'an teaches the necessity of both faith and good works for salvation:

He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. (33:43)

In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), that which ye were promised!" (41:30)
​