I would very much like to tell you yes, but the truth is that all I can offer you is my own speculation, for whatever that is worth. After all, although He was 100% human, He was also 100% God. It boggles the human mind to consider the implications of that. Still, I would say that He wasn't omniscient, although He clearly had much knowledge. I want to attribute that to His close walk with God.
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Why did God need to learn Obedience?
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love
tri-polar optimist
If God had come to earth in all His Glory the earth would have shook from the trembling of men. He came to earth through His Vessel Mary, not of the seed of man. He brought His spirit with Him. He showed us what the power of The Spirit can do even in a breathing, eating, defecating, bleeding man could do. He offered that spirit to us.
athanasius
Well-Known Member
No Jesus isn't the father. But he is one in being with him. Jesus is his own Person as is the Father. 1 God in essense and Nature(Substance) but three distint Personages!
I agree with you on this point. I want to throw some scriptures in from the LDS Church: Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. Forget for a moment that you might not consider this scripture, and just look at the ideas presented in these verses to see whether or not it could help us understand what John is trying to teach us.
I think that the term "grace for grace" is important in these verses. What do you think that means?
slabbey06
Bond-Servant of Christ
The trinity will never make sense to me. Let's forget that discussion for now.
I don't think the Trinity will ever make much sense to us, what with our finite minds and all
. But I do believe that there is one God in the three persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.I believe Jesus is fully God and fully Man. In His humanity, He learned obedience. I believe that when He took on humanity, He didn't lose any of His divine characteristics, like omniscience, but He chose not to use some of them. Philippians 2 is the passage that comes to my mind.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
love
tri-polar optimist
He didn't show off too much but it was pretty obvious who was in control.
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Verses 5-7 are vital to understanding this as it relates to His priesthood because for Jesus to be our perfect representative before the Father He had to experience full humanity to be able to make intercession for us as our high priest and representative before the Father.
As the Son, Jesus always obeyed the Father's will however the particlar obedience it would take to qualify Him as our High Priest, He learned experimentally in practical suffering. Compare with this:
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He was obdient already before His passion, but He condescended to a humiliating and trying form of obedience as a man.Jesus took upon Himself our nature, subject to all the problems of human nature yet without sinning. He did this for the purpose of making atonement for fallen man. This involves sufferings - something as God He would not have experienced, though he was the Son of God born without sin, or any thing that could make Him deserving of suffering or death He only suffered and died through infinite condescension so to be a complete Saviour he must submit to whatever the law required to make full atonement and therefore he is stated to have learned obedience by the things which he suffered, in other words Jesus didn't cheat but was tried in every manner as a man yet without sin this is also alluded to here:
Hebrews 2:17-18 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
As the Son, Jesus always obeyed the Father's will however the particlar obedience it would take to qualify Him as our High Priest, He learned experimentally in practical suffering. Compare with this:
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
He was obdient already before His passion, but He condescended to a humiliating and trying form of obedience as a man.Jesus took upon Himself our nature, subject to all the problems of human nature yet without sinning. He did this for the purpose of making atonement for fallen man. This involves sufferings - something as God He would not have experienced, though he was the Son of God born without sin, or any thing that could make Him deserving of suffering or death He only suffered and died through infinite condescension so to be a complete Saviour he must submit to whatever the law required to make full atonement and therefore he is stated to have learned obedience by the things which he suffered, in other words Jesus didn't cheat but was tried in every manner as a man yet without sin this is also alluded to here:
Hebrews 2:17-18 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
Excactly - this is why the straw man arguement that Jesus prays to Himself in our beliefs doesn't work - it is simply a misunderstanding of what we believe. It is the simplest definition that we always give - One God in three Persons. Not three Gods in three persons and not one personage in three manifestations. etc.
I like what Augustine says:
All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father has begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when "there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind," the same Trinity "sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire," but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, "You are my Son," whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again;" but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.
kadzbiz
..........................
If I was to believe in God and the Bible, I would believe that Jesus is not God, but His son, a separate entity. God wouldn't need to learn obedience, but Jesus yes.
Actually, water can be liquid, gas and solid all at once. There was a link to an article in another thread, but I can't find it yet. I've tried Googling without success yet, but I read the article and there is a particular condition that all three states can exist at once. I was quite amazed. I'm sure if man can reproduce this condition, God wouldn't have any trouble either.
kadzbiz
..........................
Explain why? Not that I believe in God, but I would've thought that God could be all things at once and have separate identities, but then this all sounds absurd too, hence my acceptance of the Bible. I was actually trying to assist the Christians here. Personally I don't care if the analogy works or not.
To stop him drinking?
Hab 2:4-6
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(5) Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
(6) Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Hab 2:4-6
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(5) Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
(6) Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Because h2o can only be in one state at once while God is all three persons of the Trinity simultaneously.
Muffled
Jesus in me
When God came to earth in the person of Jesus he was doing it for two purposes 1. To be the final sacrifice for sin 2. To prove that there is life after death.
I am making the assumption that God has never before subjected himself to physical temptation or chosen to endure physical suffering. The temptation to not obey God in the light of physical suffering is great and one that God had never undergone before. In that case does God have the right to judge us on our ability to overcome suffering if He has not been able to do it Himself? And who will have faith that temptation can be overcome even by God unless it is first demonstrated that it is possible? It is a learning process if God had never been in this situation before. And although I don't think the temptations of this world are much of a contest for God, I don't for a minute think that the Devil thought so re: the temptation in the desert.
I am making the assumption that God has never before subjected himself to physical temptation or chosen to endure physical suffering. The temptation to not obey God in the light of physical suffering is great and one that God had never undergone before. In that case does God have the right to judge us on our ability to overcome suffering if He has not been able to do it Himself? And who will have faith that temptation can be overcome even by God unless it is first demonstrated that it is possible? It is a learning process if God had never been in this situation before. And although I don't think the temptations of this world are much of a contest for God, I don't for a minute think that the Devil thought so re: the temptation in the desert.
UnityNow101
Well-Known Member
That's another point that goes against the very scripture that people say claims that Jesus is God. Jesus was tempted by Satan, and we learn in James 1:13 that God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone.
Every passage in the Bible must be looked at in it's proper context. When we see in one place a passage that seems to imply that Jesus is God, we must look at it in light of the 20 other verses that state quite the opposite. We must be diligent in our search and look at things with an open mind free of all of our leaning towards our preconceived ideas regarding Jesus...Read the Bible as if you have never read it before with new eyes free of all obstacles blinding one's view.
Every passage in the Bible must be looked at in it's proper context. When we see in one place a passage that seems to imply that Jesus is God, we must look at it in light of the 20 other verses that state quite the opposite. We must be diligent in our search and look at things with an open mind free of all of our leaning towards our preconceived ideas regarding Jesus...Read the Bible as if you have never read it before with new eyes free of all obstacles blinding one's view.
I apologize for being a little hasty, but I still don't find that link to be convincing. It speaks of a middle point and says that it can be all three forms at once, but why would you not say that it was neither of the three forms at that point instead? After all, the forms are only defined by its properties. If it is not yet liquid, then it doesn't have the properties of water. If iti s not yet steam, it doesn't have the properties of gas. If it is not yet ice, it doesn't have the properties of a solid. Maybe I'm just dumb, but that doesn't seem to fit. Can someone explain to how two states that have contradictory properties (solid and liquid) can coexist at once? That seems infeasible to me (at least here on Earth, as it were).