Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

[Sakeenah]

Isn't it nice to have so many people tell you what you really believe?

It's heartwarming, I feel so loved.

 

[Katzpur]

In September of 1995, my family "sponsored" (poor choice of words, but that was the term used by the International Rescue Committee) a Muslim family that was fleeing Bosnia as political refugees and being resettled in Utah. I had no idea back then what a risk we were taking! Fortunately, in the past twenty-three years they've been here, they have bombed no one. They are happy, productive members of American society and we are better off for their being here.

 

[Sakeenah]

No, my point was if you wish to have a discussion, then starting off with a misrepresentation that serves to paint it's target in a negative light is not a good way to start.



Again, if you wish to have a discussion about Islam, it is more productive if you discuss actual Islam, rather than how you think Muslims ought to practice their own religion.



Explaining how actual Muslims approach Islamic hermeneutics is 'debate games'? This suggests you are more interested in polemics than understanding complex issues.

If you are serious about understanding Islamic extremism, then you should start by understanding that they tend to rely far more on the broader Islamic traditions than literal interpretations of single Quranic verses.

Augustus, thank you . You mentioned everything in your posts that I wanted to say. I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[oldbadger]

I see no reason why the UK would refuse anybody entrance because of what the Koran says.

Excellent... no probs then.
We don't refuse folks because of their religion, colour or nationality, alone or together.

 

[FearGod]

Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

Koran 5:51:
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[allies = protectors]

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country. And if they do they are kind of excommunicated as per Koran. Koran even tells them they are one of them. Meaning they are now seen as Christians by Allah, Koran, other Muslims.

Literally taken, Muslim converted to Christian, would be no problem in a Christian country.

BUT if they stay Muslim in Christian country they will have conflict in conscience IMHO

"Islamic leaders" implementing unwestern rules to kill homosexuals, infidels etc. in certain countries can't be taken light by the west. We should take them up to their fanatic Koran, or have Koran changed or have refugees converted into Christianity. Failing to do so will give troubles.

If "Islamic leaders" fail to do this, they are hypocrites IMHO. And then I conclude they have a hidden agenda to .....fill it in yourself.....

I think this is the major problem now happening in Europe, but also in the rest of the world.

I am Curious what others [Christians and Muslims] think about this.

Note: @Sunstone: Thanks for telling me it's quite a one-sided OP. That's true, my mistake. I know that 90% of the Muslims are wonderful people. And they are even killed the most by fanatics interpreting the Koran literal. Here I just picked one verse to show how careful we must be with allowing fanatic Islam to grow.
Note: I don't see humans as problems. I do see that fanatic dogma's easily lead to problems. Knowledge and wisdom can help avoid these.

The verse is about the judgment system and political affairs, it has nothing to do with
individuals, otherwise if the verse is understood to be for individuals then it means
that Muslims can't marry from Christians or Jews while the prophet himself married
a Jew Safiyyah bint Huyayy, also the Muslims, the Christians and the Jews have worked
together and lived together side by side in one region..

The verse is telling the truth about the situation of today, isn't it true that Christians and Jews
are allies, talking about politics.

 

[stvdv]

The verse is about the judgment system and political affairs, it has nothing to do with
individuals, otherwise if the verse is understood to be for individuals then it means that Muslims can't marry from Christians or Jews while the prophet himself married a Jew Safiyyah bint Huyayy, also the Muslims, the Christians and the Jews have worked together and lived together side by side in one region.. The verse is telling the truth about the situation of today, isn't it true that Christians and Jews are allies, talking about politics.

Thank you FearGod [nice name, I hope it's the higher fear (feeling of respect, awe), in Holland many translate still as lower fear]. Nice and helpful to see a positive contribution. I agree that's it more about judgement system and political affairs. Although I also think it has a little to do with individuals, which I will explain later. Good to remember Mohammed married a jew [I even didn't know this].

Nice short video you shared. I was a bit disappointed the last 5 seconds, but rest was great [and maybe I didn't hear it correctly; now busy, I will listen again later].

 

[FearGod]

Thank you FearGod [nice name, I hope it's the higher fear (feeling of respect, awe), in Holland many translate still as lower fear]. Nice and helpful to see a positive contribution. I agree that's it more about judgement system and political affairs. Although I also think it has a little to do with individuals, which I will explain later. Good to remember Mohammed married a jew [I even didn't know this].

Nice short video you shared. I was a bit disappointed the last 5 seconds, but rest was great [and maybe I didn't hear it correctly; now busy, I will listen again later].

Yes indeed, many misunderstood what fears meant to be in relation to God.
Fear is kind of mercy, such as I fear harming Mum or my child, it doesn't
mean I'm afraid from my child...etc

 

[Sunstone]

You don't need any theology here, just simple statistics. Muslims are 15 percent of all prisoners but five percent of the British population.

Even if your stats are correct, would that be reason to exclude all Muslim immigrants from the UK in your opinion? Do your stats mean to you the majority of Muslim immigrants are criminals?

Jewish immigration to the US in the late 1800s and early 1900s left the US much better off than it was before, yet people today both forget the Jewish criminal gangs that ruled the ghettos for awhile, and forget the bigots who, looking at those gangs, swore Jewish immigration would never come to any good in America.

 

[stvdv]

Even if your stats are correct, would that be reason to exclude all Muslim immigrants from the UK in your opinion? Do your stats mean to you the majority of Muslim immigrants are criminals?

No that means: 99.50% Muslims are not behind bars and 99.83% non-Muslims are not behind bars. 15000 Muslims are behind bars. As police is not perfect [not all criminals are behind bars] both actual non-criminal numbers will be quite a bit lower. And for immigrants it can be different than for non-immigrant Muslims.

So thanks for sharing these stats. Very nice stats, showing that there are many, many good Muslims [99.50%]

 

[outlawState]

Even if your stats are correct, would that be reason to exclude all Muslim immigrants from the UK in your opinion? Do your stats mean to you the majority of Muslim immigrants are criminals?

Jewish immigration to the US in the late 1800s and early 1900s left the US much better off than it was before, yet people today both forget the Jewish criminal gangs that ruled the ghettos for awhile, and forget the bigots who, looking at those gangs, swore Jewish immigration would never come to any good in America.

No valid comparison between European Jews and Asian muslims. European Jews find it easy to assimilate. Asian muslims immigrate to conquer through sheer weight of numbers. Coming from places like Pakistan they breed like rabbits.

Are the majority of muslim immigrants criminals? I have no idea. All I know is that they don't assimilate but create Islamic ghettos driving out the indigenous whites,

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally, I'm glad the West in general has allowed for people such as Malala Yousafzai and Maajid Nawas to flee their former homelands (many such people literally fleeing for their lives or arriving after failed assassination attempts on them), and have a safe heaven to speak, as Muslims, against the cruelties and human rights violations of their conservative Muslim homelands.

 

[Sunstone]

No valid comparison between European Jews and Asian muslims. European Jews find it easy to assimilate. Asian muslims immigrate to conquer through sheer weight of numbers. Coming from places like Pakistan they breed like rabbits.

Are the majority of muslim immigrants criminals? I have no idea. All I know is that they don't assimilate but create Islamic ghettos driving out the indigenous whites,

"European Jews find it easy to assimilate". They didn't. Not when they came to the US in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

"Asian Muslims immigrate to conquer through sheer weight of numbers." Source?

"All I know is they don't assimilate..." First off, no immigrant groups to the US have ever found it truly easy to assimilate. Most of have taken at least two or three generations to do so, sometimes more. I presume European immigrants are much the same -- unless human nature changes when one crosses the Atlantic.

Second, there are historical and cultural reasons why at least most European nations make it more difficult for immigrant groups to assimilate than the US does. The US after all, is not based on a single ethnic group, or even two or three ethnic groups, as are most European nations, but on multiple ethnic groups, and has been even from the day it was founded. Compared to most or all European nations, the US knows how to assimilate people.

"...ghettos driving out the indigenous whites." All or almost all immigrant groups form ghettos that drive out the "indigenous" people. Sometimes, the same ghetto sees successive waves of different immigrants, each one "driving out" the one before it.

 

[Estro Felino]

You don't need any theology here, just simple statistics. Muslims are 15 percent of all prisoners but five percent of the British population.

As usual....I don't think blaming a religious group is correct; That the crime rate has increased in UK because of uncontrolled immigration...well...it's probably true
But immigrants come from Christian countries too

 

[stvdv]

Koran 5:51:
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[allies = protectors]

Finally after reading like 10 different Koran versions I found 1 better translation, solving the "bad feeling" I got from the other 9 Koran translations. Now I have a verse that needs no context and is quite straightforward and still feels perfect.

Certain Jews and Christians Cannot Be Friends
*51. O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as protectors; these are protectors of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

1: "certain" solves the generalization that felt really bad to me
2: "protectors"[implies also Allah is our Protector] feels even better than "allies" to me

My guru, Sai Baba helds Islam in very high esteem [even gave me a Muslim wife!], so I am very serious about having correct translation and interpretation. Some felt offended by this post, but I only have one goal "correct translation". The translation in OP felt wrong. I hoped to get "better translation" and luckily Allah provided with my latest Koran translation.

Very important verse in Koran IMHO is verse 3:07. Good to know that Koran is telling us that the essence of Koran is in straightforward verses. So my bad feeling with this verse, was correct. I rather have 1 straightforward verse than 10 non-straightforward verses. Verse 3.07 even warns against non-straightforward verses !!!

So I'm glad I continued pursuing this verse. I belief "Koran is Divine inspired", so it should feel perfect. Now it does.

The word "Auliya" is translated with "protector", "friends" and "allies".
"friends" [Wordly] feels really bad in this context, unless of course "divine friend"
"Allies" feels oke: both ways, allies of each other. Disadvantage "feels not as divine protection"
"Protectors" feels best: one way, he protects me. But also implies "Allah as protector"

So I finally googled the word "Auliya" and got this:
An Arabic name. Another spelling of "Aulia". Traditional meanings: Leader, spirit, angel, friend.
Reading this made it feels even better. That was my first feeling, because 30 years ago I declared to God, you are my friend and my protector, I won't go to doctors. God alone.

 

[stvdv]

The verse is about the judgment system and political affairs, it has nothing to do with individuals, otherwise if the verse is understood to be for individuals then it means that Muslims can't marry from Christians or Jews while the prophet himself married a Jew Safiyyah bint Huyayy, also the Muslims, the Christians and the Jews have worked together and lived together side by side in one region.. The verse is telling the truth about the situation of today, isn't it true that Christians and Jews are allies, talking about politics.

I just found a new Koran translation which translates verse 5:51:
Certain Jews and Christians Cannot Be Friends
*51. O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as protectors; these are protectors of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

So then in a way it has to do with individuals "certain Jews and Christians". That feels much better to me. Only 1 out of about 10 Korans translated with "certain"

I have a question about the video you provide. Did I hear correct that they see "atheism + materialism as the common enemy"? It is said in the last 5sec [that does not sound nice towards atheists, does it? I could not figure out what he exactly meant in the last part]

 

[FearGod]

I just found a new Koran translation which translates verse 5:51:
Certain Jews and Christians Cannot Be Friends
*51. O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as protectors; these are protectors of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

So then in a way it has to do with individuals "certain Jews and Christians". That feels much better to me. Only 1 out of about 10 Korans translated with "certain"

The verse is about the whole community, plural term, if it means for individuals then the verse should
be don't be a friend for a Jew or a Christian, but the verse is about not to follow them, IOW Muslims
shouldn't follow their way, as the Jews and The Christians are following each other, the verse
added that if you follow them then you're one of them, a Muslim can be a friend of a Jew and
a Christian but shouldn't follow them in their way of life.

I have a question about the video you provide. Did I hear correct that they see "atheism + materialism as the common enemy"? It is said in the last 5sec [that does not sound nice towards atheists, does it? I could not figure out what he exactly meant in the last part]

That is the opinion of one other speaker, and it has nothing to do with the quran and Islam.

 

[outlawState]

As usual....I don't think blaming a religious group is correct; That the crime rate has increased in UK because of uncontrolled immigration...well...it's probably true
But immigrants come from Christian countries too

There are very few "Christian" countries. A prerequisite for a "christian country" would be to resist Islam as an unholy creed, which very few do - just a few perhaps in eastern Europe, such as Hungary. I agree that every European country offers its criminals as immigrants. So Islam is not alone there.

Compared to the population as a whole, the non-white population is over represented accounting for 12% of the general population and 25% of the prison population at December 2016.

I would also take issue that Islam is a "religions group." Islam is primarily a political group and a racial group. Islam is centred on arabic. Muslims are expected to know arabic. It is an arab supremacy cult. The religion of Islam is deemed paganism by scripture, even by Christ himself.

However I agree that criminality is not a sole criteria for immigration or lack of it. I have elsewhere pointed to the inherent problems in assimilating muslims. They don't assimilate easily. They build mosques. They live in muslim ghettos. They even insist on their own law - sharia law.

If you want an example of complete muslim take over of previously non-muslim lands, then look everywhere in the middle east and northern Africa and southern Asia etc. None of those places were muslim at one point.

If you want your country to be taken over by Islam, then invite them in. They will surely come and they will come to conquer. It may take time but time they have aplenty.

 

[Shia Islam]

He is not a Muslim or a scholar of Islam. Ask @Sakeenah, @FearGod, @Shia Islam, @Godobeyer and so on instead.

Hi there,

I went through this post and here is my take..

And beware that, I will post here a post that is similar to my posts of the good old days J So it will be looong…so don’t be lazy and read it all!

First, as a Shia Muslims, I must start by saying that Shia Muslims have been the biggest victims of the Salafi/Wahhabi terrorism..

Then when it comes to Islam in the west and the Muslim Migration to the west, I understand that there is an issue here that need to be studied thoroughly; as unstudied decisions may lead to unwanted results..

What I am sure of is that many of the mosques in the west have been built by the Petro-Dollar money and are run by some extremists..

Now let us talk about the verse that is mentioned in the OP, which is:

“O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.”

Let us first state undeniable facts here:

1.Islam consider Christianity and Judaism as religions which have been originated by God.

2.Althpugh Islam says that the Christians and the Jews have distorted the original teachings of Jesus and Moses, Christians and Jews were allowed to have their own Churches and Synagogues in the Muslim land..and up until today we see that the birth place of Jesus and may historic Synagogues in the Islamic lands have been kept unharmed thorough centuries of the Muslim rule.

3. You will find many verses in the Quran which talk positively about the Jews and the Christians.

4. It is absolutely wrong to pick some Quranic lines out of context and interpret them without even referring to the Islamic interpretation (Tafseer) books.

Now let us talk about the above verse, that is mentioned in the OP:

The verse is part of the Al Maida Quranic Chapter, which is chapter 5.

This was among the last part of the Quran that was revealed upon prophet Muhammad in Medina..These verses were revealed during a turbulent era of the early Islamic history, when the Jews have joined the Arab Non-believers in their wars against the prophet..

Those who studies the early Islamic history, know that after the Meccan have rejected Islam, they forced to prophet to migrate to Medina..in Medina there was a small minority who were not happy bout the arrival of prophet Muhammad and were called the hypocrites.. These hypocrites caused great problems to the prophet. During the wars between the Muslims and the Jews, they refused to cancel their historic compacts with the Jews and were in contact with some groups in the Levant who were Christians and were agents of the Roman State, and were hostile toward Islam.

If you read the verse that directly follow this verse you will find that it say the following:

“So you see those in whose hearts is disease hastening into [association with] them, saying, "We are afraid a misfortune may strike us." But perhaps Allah will bring conquest or a decision from Him, and they will become, over what they have been concealing within themselves, regretful.”

So they try to bring excuses for their position..

Also if you continue reading the verses, you will find that after only 10 verses, the Quran, clearly speaks positively about the Jews and the Christians, were it says:

“VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.”

5-62

Finally, when it comes to whether we should tale the Quran literally or not…I will say that the Quran was revealed in an Arabic language and talked to the Arabs with their own language. And in any language, the general rule is that the speech will be taken literally. However, in all languages there are some exceptions and hence in certain parts there are indications that some sentences are not meant to be taken literally..

However the most important point here is the following:

Although the Quran was revealed in an easy language, and although anyone who reads it will benefit from it, In Islam, not anyone can “Interpret it”. Moreover, in Shia Islam, the successors of the prophet, who are the Twelve Imams, are the ones who interpret the Quran and deliver a unified interpretation of the Quran that is meant to unite all the believers in one faith of submission to God.

 

[stvdv]

Now let us talk about the verse that is mentioned in the OP, which is:

Thank you for you kind words and explanations. I started this OP, because the translation of this verse didn't feel good.

Just some time back I found another translation that solved my bad feeling. The word "protectors" is used instead of "friends". And "certain" was added [only in 1 of the 10 Koran translations I have]. For me now the whole verse feels good. Just a little change but a big effect. You think "certain" is correct here, according to your arabic verse? And I like "protector" [not friend or allies] because it can also mean "Allah" as my protector. Without "certain" it's too generalizing [towards Christians and Jews] IMHO.

*51. O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as protectors; these are protectors of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

1 more question. I like verse 3:07 in the Koran, where is said:
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses— which constitute the essence of the scripture—as well as multiple- meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple- meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, “We believe in this—all of it comes from our Lord.” Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

I like this verse very much, because it says IMHO that "straightforward verses" contain the essence of the Koran. And gives a warning as regard to the multi-meaning verses which easily can be used to create confusion. Is there a list of "straightforward verses" only?

 

[Estro Felino]

If you want your country to be taken over by Islam, then invite them in. They will surely come and they will come to conquer. It may take time but time they have aplenty.

Btw...I'm happy I won't have any children...because we all know what Europe will be like in 50 years.
Your speech makes kinda sense...but considering the attitude of the leaders of the Slavic world, like: https://www.politico.eu/article/robert-fico-islam-no-place-news-slovakia-muslim-refugee/

I think that their only desire is to remain monoethnic nations... but it has nothing to do with religion.