Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

[stvdv]

As such the OP is based on a flawed premise, and doesn't really set up the possibility for a meaningful discussion of Islamic extremism.

Aha, I see. You like to debate for debate sake [and winning]. That was not my intention with this post, although it is in the debate section.

I put it in Biblical debate section, to make Christians aware of this danger. Because I see many people still being fooled that Koran verses are not dangerous.

Playing debate games is what Koran scholars do all the time. And I get is now. It takes the heat of the problem. Trump does the same, 1 lie following the other, too fast to be caught. Same in Koran. Plenty of verses that should not be taken literal, which are taken literal by millions even today.

Bible has plenty of cruel verses, but I don't see fanatic Christians chop of heads, and creating youtubes with this propoganda. They seem to be less barbaric.
[But of course that's only a handful doing so; I know many who are wonderful. I went a few times to a mosque and it was nice.]

It's time to stop playing debate games. And concentrate on the problem to solve it. Make people aware of Koran verses. Also for Christians it's good to know what refugees believe, because when you understand each others religion then you can make it work (or not).

 

[metis]

I would say that group of "Christians" who refuse to take in heavily vetted refugees ain't much Christian, imo. Yes, there are always going to be some risks involved, but I just need to remind people that the early church took many such risks that included spreading the Word in hostile areas, helping lepers, etc.

I live in an area where there are many Muslims, had many as students, went to some of their weddings, had ecumenical meetings with them, visited their mosques, and guess what?-- they're real people trying to make a living here in the States like the rest of us.

BTW, my synagogue took in seven Muslim families during the assault on Kosovo, all but two boys returned back after the conflict was over, and none of us in the synagogue got beheaded.

 

[stvdv]

Why then say something like this

@Augustus Why do you assume that the correct method of interpretation is rank, unthinking scriptural literalism?.

You put it as if my general assumption of ...interpretation is rank....

@stvdv I don't think that, but I see that happening a lot

That is not my general assumption. Of course I see this kind of interpretation happening, but not general as being the rule

@Augustus Why then say something like this

This particular verse is quite simple. Sometimes it is just what it is. Scholars like to play grammer games. I have to disappoint you, I am not like that.
Of course the Koran probably have something like "Love is the highest Commandment", which should solve most of the violence. Only most violent people seem to forget this kind of highest Commandment and remember the cruel verses better. That's why IMHO I think it's good to point out verses causing the violence. So that these people finally get it also that "Islam means peace".

 

[stvdv]

I would say that group of "Christians" who refuse to take in heavily vetted refugees ain't much Christian, imo. Yes, there are always going to be some risks involved, but I just need to remind people that the early church took many such risks that included spreading the Word in hostile areas, helping lepers, etc.

That sounds very nice. Yesterday I was in a Christian event, and they also took in Muslims. But the aim was to get them converted to Christianity. If that's the aim, then I feel it's a little different story. Still nice to help them, but maybe less nice.

 

[metis]

That sounds very nice. Yesterday I was in a Christian event, and they also took in Muslims. But the aim was to get them converted to Christianity. If that's the aim, then I feel it's a little different story. Still nice to help them, but maybe less nice.

We didn't try to convert any of them because that's not our role or purpose. Matter of fact, many have concluded that Mother Theresa may have converted more Indians to Christianity by not actually trying to convert them but for helping so many. Yes, she had her flaws, no doubt, so I'll say that before someone else does.

 

[stvdv]

We didn't try to convert any of them because that's not our role or purpose. Matter of fact, many have concluded that Mother Theresa may have converted more Indians to Christianity by not actually trying to convert them but for helping so many. Yes, she had her flaws, no doubt, so I'll say that before someone else does.

Thanks, that is very nice to hear. Stories of love without hidden agenda. And I also think Mother Theresa did very nice work. I highly respect her.

 

[Augustus]

Aha, I see. You like to debate for debate sake [and winning]. That was not my intention with this post, although it is in the debate section.

No, my point was if you wish to have a discussion, then starting off with a misrepresentation that serves to paint it's target in a negative light is not a good way to start.

This particular verse is quite simple. Sometimes it is just what it is. Scholars like to play grammer games. I have to disappoint you, I am not like that.

Again, if you wish to have a discussion about Islam, it is more productive if you discuss actual Islam, rather than how you think Muslims ought to practice their own religion.

Playing debate games is what Koran scholars do all the time. And I get is now. It takes the heat of the problem. Trump does the same, 1 lie following the other, too fast to be caught. Same in Koran. Plenty of verses that should not be taken literal, which are taken literal by millions even today.

Explaining how actual Muslims approach Islamic hermeneutics is 'debate games'? This suggests you are more interested in polemics than understanding complex issues.

If you are serious about understanding Islamic extremism, then you should start by understanding that they tend to rely far more on the broader Islamic traditions than literal interpretations of single Quranic verses.

 

[sun rise]

I am a Jew. Muslims and Christians (and atheists, Buddhists, etc) are my brothers and sisters. While I won't approve of certain actions, I utterly reject "us vs them" where "they" are evil/worse because of this or that.

"Love is a weapon of Light, and it has the power to eradicate all forms of darkness. That is the key. When we offer love even to our enemies, we destroy their darkness and hatred..."

“While we could have many, many enemies that could curse us, try to destroy us, our job is not to be busy with them. Our job is to be busy with bringing in light. Because when you are full with light, no darkness can come and affect your life. Never be focused with the darkness. Always focus on the Light. You focus on the Light, you become the Light. You focus on the Darkness, no matter what is the reason, even if it sounds like a good reason, you become Darkness. Always be for something; don’t waste your time being against. There’s so many things to be against in this world, when would you have the time to do something positive, and create that Light that can remove that darkness?”

 

[stvdv]

1: No, my point was if you wish to have a discussion, then starting off with a misrepresentation that serves to paint it's target in a negative light is not a good way to start.

2: Again, if you wish to have a discussion about Islam, it is more productive if you discuss actual Islam, rather than how you think Muslims ought to practice their own religion.

Explaining how actual Muslims approach Islamic hermeneutics is 'debate games'? This suggests you are more interested in polemics than understanding complex issues.

3: If you are serious about understanding Islamic extremism, then you should start by understanding that they tend to rely far more on the broader Islamic traditions than literal interpretations of single Quranic verses.

Thank you, very good educational points for me.
1: I agree that this negative light is not a good start. Thanks for reminding me.
2: I agree that normally that would be the case. But the point here was that Islam refugees come into non-muslim country, so I think that it might be good to talk about how they practise in my country beforehand.
3: I agree, the mosque I was they have the picture of love and peace. Although they also follow the verses quite literal. The Koran gives solution for many daily problems. I just found out "greeting between man/woman". Very interesting. Very literal following instructions in verses. And what I understood from a Muslim was that many daily routines are quite accurate prescribed how to do. I think that is very nice. It would be bit too much for me to follow all rules, but I have respect for Muslims who can do it. I thought about joining with Ramadan. So I get even a better impression of Islam. But again quite a few strict rules to follow. Won't be easy for me.

And seeing they follow some verses quite strict, I wrote this post. I really thought the Muslims follow many verses quite literal [those with daily routine advises]. So must also be difficult for them to know which verse how and when to follow. But I will ask when I come in the mosque again.

Oh I just remember our friend @PopeADope can enlighten me here. Am I so wrong here, assuming that a Muslim follows many verses literal?? And if they follow verses literal is it so strange that my 5:51 verse easily gets misinterpreted??

 

[stvdv]

I am a Jew. Muslims and Christians (and atheists, Buddhists, etc) are my brothers and sisters. While I won't approve of certain actions, I utterly reject "us vs them" where "they" are evil/worse because of this or that.

"Love is a weapon of Light, and it has the power to eradicate all forms of darkness. That is the key. When we offer love even to our enemies, we destroy their darkness and hatred..."

“While we could have many, many enemies that could curse us, try to destroy us, our job is not to be busy with them. Our job is to be busy with bringing in light. Because when you are full with light, no darkness can come and affect your life. Never be focused with the darkness. Always focus on the Light. You focus on the Light, you become the Light. You focus on the Darkness, no matter what is the reason, even if it sounds like a good reason, you become Darkness. Always be for something; don’t waste your time being against. There’s so many things to be against in this world, when would you have the time to do something positive, and create that Light that can remove that darkness?”

Lovely said.

My first lesson which I still love is "Just be a light".

But sometimes it just don't work. There was a big dog, and I send all the light I could, but he still tried to bite me. Of course I know it's my inabilitiy. If I were like Jesus I could walk on water [I literally believe this even], and easily have the dog not chase me.

So until I am like Jesus, I rather use my common sense. And try to talk out the problems [not with the dog when it is chasing me of course], and rather sooner than later. But I do agree with you that we better focus on LOVE 24/07.

 

[Estro Felino]

The pacific coexistence between Christians and any other religious group is a given in Europe.
So taking refugees in is something good and stands for an opportunity of cultural enrichment...

The problem is numbers. Sweden has only 10 million inhabitants; taking an unlimited number of refugees in, who belong to particularly prolific ethnicities is not something good.

I guess the only thing Swedes want is not to become a minority in their own country: I don't think they're asking for the moon.

 

[oldbadger]

Why Christian countries should beware taking in Muslims refugees

Koran 5:51:
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[allies = protectors]

The Koran clearly warns Muslims to NOT take refuge in a Christian country. And if they do they are kind of excommunicated as per Koran. Koran even tells them they are one of them. Meaning they are now seen as Christians by Allah, Koran, other Muslims.

Literally taken, Muslim converted to Christian, would be no problem in a Christian country.

BUT if they stay Muslim in Christian country they will have conflict in conscience IMHO

"Islamic leaders" implementing unwestern rules to kill homosexuals, infidels etc. in certain countries can't be taken light by the west. We should take them up to their fanatic Koran, or have Koran changed or have refugees converted into Christianity. Failing to do so will give troubles.

If "Islamic leaders" fail to do this, they are hypocrites IMHO. And then I conclude they have a hidden agenda to .....fill it in yourself.....

I think this is the major problem now happening in Europe, but also in the rest of the world.

I am Curious what others [Christians and Muslims] think about this.

@Sunstone: Thanks for telling me it's quite a one-sided OP. That's true, my mistake. I know that 90% of the Muslims are wonderful people. And they are even killed the most by fanatics interpreting the Koran literal. Here I just picked one verse to show how careful we must be with allowing fanatic Islam to grow.

Why would the UK where I live refuse entrance to anybody because of what the Quran says?

 

[stvdv]

Why would the UK where I live refuse entrance to anybody because of what the Quran says?

I see no reason why the UK would refuse anybody entrance because of what the Koran says.

 

[outlawState]

Here is an example of Islamic assimilation UK style from today's paper.
Birmingham thugs smash up a Mercedes and beat man to the ground | Daily Mail Online

You don't need any theology here, just simple statistics. Muslims are 15 percent of all prisoners but five percent of the British population.

Also nearly all grooming gangs targeting white girls in Britain comprise muslims. See Grooming gangs are still 'abusing girls across Britain'

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh I just remember our friend @PopeADope can enlighten me here.

He is not a Muslim or a scholar of Islam. Ask @Sakeenah, @FearGod, @Shia Islam, @Godobeyer and so on instead.

 

[Katzpur]

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise!

Love it.

 

[Augustus]

And seeing they follow some verses quite strict, I wrote this post. I really thought the Muslims follow many verses quite literal [those with daily routine advises].

Most of these are actually from hadith/sunnah rather than Quran, even basic things like prayer

 

[Sakeenah]

Excellent! I, too, am an internet Islamic scholar fully competent to interpret verses of the Qur'an in context! Welcome to the rich world of internet expertise!

 

[Sakeenah]

I see it's Islamic Awareness week on RF. It's great to see people educating me on my faith.

 

[Katzpur]

I see it's Islamic Awareness week on RF. It's great to see people educating me on my faith.

Isn't it nice to have so many people tell you what you really believe?