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Why can't some people understand that Evolution is not Atheism.

RubyEyes

Truth Seeker
I'm sorry for causing offense Rubyeyes, my comment was genuine.
Don't worry, maybe my reaction was exaggerated.

If you believe in an all powerful god then abiogenesis could be how he started everything. Hope I cleared that up.
To look at it from another angle, so that I make myself understood better, would you take a God who creates an universe, with all the laws that will lead to the formation of life, to be all powerful? Or would another type of God be more powerful?
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I should add that I have never been thrown out of a religious forum including Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. At least now I know that this place a liberal cesspool and there is no more point for me to post here.

That does not speak well for the religious forums!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
fantôme profane said:
If you want to attack atheism go ahead, have at it. But to try to attack atheism by denying evolution is ridiculous. It is like trying to attack your enemy by banging your own head against a wall. You are not going to harm your enemy and you certainly are not going to harm the wall.

Not unless the person is a head-butting karate champion. :shrug:

:banghead3
 
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Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Evolution is no more atheistic than any other scientific theory. So why do people insist on conflating evolution with atheism?
Some people conflate the two, both fundy theits and anti-theists. Both are as dumb as each other.

For the fundy theist, it's because it doesn't fit with their literalistic reading of the text. Anyone who doesn't is, obviously, deceived.

For the anti-theist, it's because the text exists period, and therefore must be taken as historical as opposed to myth. Woe to the theist who says "I don't take it literally."; then they're accused of cherry picking. Because the text exists, and says one thing, the fact evolution has been shown as fact, therefore, somehow means that God and religion is bunk.

Both live a symbiotic relationship with one another, feeding each other with their own crap, which they in turn recycle and rephrase, and then reiterate. Both annoy me.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
It may be correct that Dawkins does not directly use evolution to attack religion, however, below he calls anyone who does not believe in it a few choice names. As many Christians still do not believe in evolution they would be included in his indictment on non-believers in evolution so an indirect attack on the religious has effectively been made. Not a very nice one either. He even call people who teach their children religion child abusers

This is what I don't like about Dawkins' personally; this is all very arrogant. He insults people who claim not to believe that evoution is true and, what is more, he claims that parents are engaging in child abuse by teaching their kids YE creationism. It's little wonder that some people consider Dawkins to be such a pompous blowhard. I loved reading his books years ago but now he seems just as dogmatic and arrogant as, say, Jonathan Sarfati.

In my judgment, in some ways Dawkins has become the mirror image opposite of creationists like Sarfati. Both Dawkins and Sarfati are arrogant, both are blowhards, both defend their beliefs with dogmatic rigidity, and both are insulting to people with opposing views. For Dawkins, anyone who does not accept evolution is stupid, insane, or ingorant. For Sarfati, anyone who does not accept biblical creationism is stupid, ignorant, or just a God-hater.

Within the evolutionary science community and the creation science community, the evolutionist and atheist Richard Dawkins has faced charges of engaging in pseudoscience and has also faced charges of committing elementary errors.[3][4]

The website True Free Thinker notes:

“ Moreover, note that with regards to “assertions without adequate evidence” evolutionary biologist and geneticist, Prof. Richard Lewontin, referenced Carl Sagan’s list of the “best contemporary science-popularizers” which includes Richard Dawkins. These authors have, as Lewontin puts it, “put unsubstantiated assertions or counterfactual claims at the very center of the stories they have retailed in the market.” Lewontin specifically mentions “Dawkins’s vulgarizations of Darwinism” (find details here and here).

Even renowned evolutionary biologists H. Allen Orr, David Sloan Wilson, and Massimo Pigliucci have called into question the power that Dawkins once had as an intellectual, since he has made elementary errors in The God Delusion.[5]
”
In 2010, a new discovery regarding the eye further discredited the evolutionary quackery of Richard Dawkins.[6] In addition, in 2010, the journal Nature featured an interview with the evolutionist, biologist, and atheist David Sloan Wilson who criticized Richard Dawkins for denying the evidence for the societal benefits of religion (see also: Atheism and Mental and Physical Health).[7][8]

Concerning the social science of history, Richard Dawkins has engaged in historical revisionism when it comes to the mass murders committed by atheists.

Many of Richard Dawkins detractors are conservative Christians which is not surprising. The Wall Street Journal reported: "A comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians."[9] In the United States, CBS News reported in October of 2005 that the Americans most likely to believe only in the theory of evolution are liberals.[10]

Ah! Conservapedia! The unbiased, completely objective, scientifically accurate, and academically respectable encyclopedia of all sound knowledge!

Here's the thing: maybe Dawkins has made errors and I am open to investigating any errors and unsubstantiated claims that Dawkins might have made. If he is truly guilty, Dawkins needs to be shamed for sloppy scholarship. Personally, I wasn't impressed with his book The God Delusion and consider it to be his worst book.

But I have trouble taking conservapedia seriously, though. The author believes that the Bible is inspired, inerrant, and infallible which strongly deminises an author's credibility in my opinion. Worst, he quotes from a Christian apologist James Holding who is not only a complete hack when defending Evangelical Christianity but is also a world-class jerk, too. I am convinced that Mr. Holding is a very evil man, period.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
A good part of evolution's appeal is the implicit view that God is not going to do anything to me no matter what I do. I can do what I want and be independent of God. Such thinking is incorrect, of course. (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

So in other words, because I am an evolutionist, I am a selfish moral anarchist. Is this right? I can just do whatever I want without fear of divine retribution?

:rolleyes:

Seriously?
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
I can understand why you would say that. It might appear as though I am confused but i really am not at all confused. My belief system is dynamic and fluid. I am always willing to change it. What I cannot change is my belief in God. You see I asked God, the eternal father if these things were true and he did manifest the truth of it to my soul in and through the power of the Holy Ghost in a way that I cannot deny. So powerful was that experience that I can never deny it, neither do I want to. I would die rather than deny what I know to be true but I recognize that the experience was unique to me and I cannot prove it to anybody else. I don't try either. It is impossible for me to convert anybody. They must first have to have that desire and seek for themselves.

I understand. I have the opposite feeling towards the God that Christians believe is real. I went through a period of anguish, asking God to reveal himself to me, asking God for an unmistakable sign that he was there, that he cared for me, and all I got was nothing. It wasn't long before I realized that I was praying to empty, uncaring, white walls in my bedroom. I went through a period of serious agony before finally concluding that no God out there cared for me.

If God was real and showed himself to me and said that he loved me, I would probably just roll my eyes, shrug my shoulders, and reply to him, "Yeah, that's nice. Whatever you say, Jehovah". I would seriously rather die than follow Christ or go to "heaven" and I would seriously rather go to "hell". Nothing can possibly convince me that I am loved by "Jehovah" or "Christ". After telling this to God, I would just end it all; there is no point in delaying the inevitability of hell, is there? I would just take my eternal punishment in hell like a man.
 
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Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
One can hate a fictional character. Atheists hate the morality that God stands for.

What morality do atheists hate? Back in my atheist days, I believed in being honest, being fair, and treating people with dignity and respect. I still do.

Well, to this day I would still love to engage in premaritial sex with a lovely lady if I met the right person.

Okay, I guess this damns me as being an evil person. Oh well. I tried being honest, decent, respectful, and fair.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
This is what I don't like about Dawkins' personally; this is all very arrogant. He insults people who claim not to believe that evoution is true and, what is more, he claims that parents are engaging in child abuse by teaching their kids YE creationism. It's little wonder that some people consider Dawkins to be such a pompous blowhard. I loved reading his books years ago but now he seems just as dogmatic and arrogant as, say, Jonathan Sarfati.

In my judgment, in some ways Dawkins has become the mirror image opposite of creationists like Sarfati. Both Dawkins and Sarfati are arrogant, both are blowhards, both defend their beliefs with dogmatic rigidity, and both are insulting to people with opposing views. For Dawkins, anyone who does not accept evolution is stupid, insane, or ingorant. For Sarfati, anyone who does not accept biblical creationism is stupid, ignorant, or just a God-hater.
Well this makes me think that there is another point that needs to be made. Not only that evolution is not atheism, but perhaps we need to make another point that should be obvious. Evolution is not Dawkins. Whatever someone feels about this one person has no impact on the overwhelming empirical scientific evidence for evolution and common descent. It doesn't matter if this one person is a good man, or an arrogant blowhard. His personal character affects the evidence not at all.

I think it would be terrible if someone were to reject scientific knowledge simply because they don't like Richard Dawkins.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
fantôme profane;3263389 said:
It doesn't matter if this one person is a good man, or an arrogant blowhard. His personal character affects the evidence not at all.
Though I agree, we're not always logical beings; you often hear of people stopping to go to churches altogether because of one or two bad experiences at a specific church, for example. People will reject something, outright, if it's from someone they hate, be it "the loony left", or the "right wing nutjobs", or whatever else.

In the same way as some people come to the conclusion 'one religious person = all religious people = all religions', others come to the conclusion 'Dawkins = atheism = evolution'.

I think it would be terrible if someone were to reject scientific knowledge simply because they don't like Richard Dawkins.
Unfortunately, they do, too. :cover: It's why I think anti-theists, especially ones like Dawkins, have done more to encourage religious literalism and adherence to creationism than they realize.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
fantôme profane;3263389 said:
Well this makes me think that there is another point that needs to be made. Not only that evolution is not atheism, but perhaps we need to make another point that should be obvious. Evolution is not Dawkins. Whatever someone feels about this one person has no impact on the overwhelming empirical scientific evidence for evolution and common descent. It doesn't matter if this one person is a good man, or an arrogant blowhard. His personal character affects the evidence not at all.

I think it would be terrible if someone were to reject scientific knowledge simply because they don't like Richard Dawkins.

You're right! I have learned more about evolution from Stephen J Gould, Niles Eldredge, and Douglas Futuyma than I have from Dawkins. In fact, I grew a lifetime love of writing from Gould even back when I was a creationist. I loved reading Gould's essays even if I thought he was flat out wrong about evolution. People tell me that I write very well and that I am very articulate in the way that I express my thoughts and my arguments. Well, I have Gould to thank for that. I learned how to write well by reading his essays. I still have his books Ever Since Darwin and The Panda's Thumb in my collection of books. It's these that served as a model for expressing myself concisely and they always inspire me to try to improve my articulation.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
You're right! I have learned more about evolution from Stephen J Gould, Niles Eldredge, and Douglas Futuyma than I have from Dawkins. In fact, I grew a lifetime love of writing from Gould even back when I was a creationist. I loved reading Gould's essays even if I thought he was flat out wrong about evolution. People tell me that I write very well and that I am very articulate in the way that I express my thoughts and my arguments. Well, I have Gould to thank for that. I learned how to write well by reading his essays. I still have his books Ever Since Darwin and The Panda's Thumb in my collection of books. It's these that served as a model for expressing myself concisely and they always inspire me to try to improve my articulation.

Don't misunderstand me. I happen to be a fan of Dawkins. I am just saying it doesn't matter. Like him or loathe him, makes no difference. And I certainly don't want to make this another Dawkins thread.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I find it "double-standard" that some people would equate evolution as "atheism", but not other biological fields or other hundreds of (non-biological) scientific branches or scientific fields.

Why is it only evolution be labelled as "atheism"?

Atheist is only a person who believe there are no existence of gods. Atheist don't make that person a scientist...or an evolutionist.

Similarly a person who accept evolution need not be an atheist; he could be an atheist or theist...or anything in-between.

Evolutionary biologists (researchers, theorists ) are like any other scientists, they are scientists by profession.


BTW I'm just addressing the OP...if somewhat belatedly.
 
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johnhanks

Well-Known Member
I find it "double-standard" hat some people would equate evolution as "atheism", but not other biological fields or other hundreds of (non-biological) scientific branches or scientific fields.

Why is it only evolution be labelled as "atheism"?

Atheist is only a person who believe there are no existence of gods. Atheist don't make that person a scientist...or an evolutionist.

Similarly a person who accept evolution need not be an atheist; he could be an atheist or theist...or anything in-between.

Evolutionary biologists (researchers, theorists ) are like any other scientists, they are scientists by profession.


BTW I'm just addressing the OP...if somewhat belatedly.
The relationship between atheism and 'evolutionism' is best understood in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions.

To put it succinctly, atheism is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for acceptance of the theory of evolution, while acceptance of the theory of evolution (or at least of a naturalistic origin of species) is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for atheism.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Unfortunately, they do, too. :cover: It's why I think anti-theists, especially ones like Dawkins, have done more to encourage religious literalism and adherence to creationism than they realize.

That may well be true, given the strength of the vitriol against Dawkins and against Evolution itself.

Still, I can hardly find fault in Dawkins or in any evolutionists for that. It is not their role to be nice for the benefit of people set on being fanatical.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I find it "double-standard" hat some people would equate evolution as "atheism", but not other biological fields or other hundreds of (non-biological) scientific branches or scientific fields.

Why is it only evolution be labelled as "atheism"?

Atheist is only a person who believe there are no existence of gods. Atheist don't make that person a scientist...or an evolutionist.

Similarly a person who accept evolution need not be an atheist; he could be an atheist or theist...or anything in-between.

Evolutionary biologists (researchers, theorists ) are like any other scientists, they are scientists by profession.


BTW I'm just addressing the OP...if somewhat belatedly.

I think that evolution is attacked because it negates the nasty notion of original sin. Christians, at least, seem to need that so they can feel they are special in the universe due to having been "saved".
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Still, I can hardly find fault in Dawkins or in any evolutionists for that. It is not their role to be nice for the benefit of people set on being fanatical.
Manners cost nothing.
One can be VERY critical of religions without being a knob.
 
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