Why bother?

[Baydwin]

Before coming to this forum I had met one creationist (that I know about), a girl in secondary school (high school in the US). Initially I thought she was joking, after I realised she was serious I just dismissed it as a demented quirk.

After coming to these forums I tried to understand the creationist mindset, but now that I've read many threads and added a few posts of my own, I'm left wondering what the point is. You might as well be debating a book, something that has a set amount of unalterable information embedded within it, and no matter how hard you shout at the book you can't get it to re-write itself.

So, yeah, why even bother?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

As Tumbleweed once said to me. It should be the mission in life to change the way people like that think. It is dangerous to leave it unchecked, and as such you should keep speaking up. It may not seem like it makes a difference, but that isn't a reason to stop telling the truth.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Because, even though you may not reach the person you're debating, your words might reach someone who comes along to causally read the thread.

 

[Commoner]

Before coming to this forum I had met one creationist (that I know about), a girl in secondary school (high school in the US). Initially I thought she was joking, after I realised she was serious I just dismissed it as a demented quirk.

After coming to these forums I tried to understand the creationist mindset, but now that I've read many threads and added a few posts of my own, I'm left wondering what the point is. You might as well be debating a book, something that has a set amount of unalterable information embedded within it, and no matter how hard you shout at the book you can't get it to re-write itself.

So, yeah, why even bother?

Because there are people who used to be creationists and now...well, they're not anymore. That's good enough for me. It's a long term effort and you are unlikely to spot any progress in the short term - like, in a debate.

Not to mention prevention - seeing a creationist rightfully being ridiculed for his ignorance is unlikely to prompt you to adopt their position.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Before coming to this forum I had met one creationist (that I know about), a girl in secondary school (high school in the US). Initially I thought she was joking, after I realised she was serious I just dismissed it as a demented quirk.

After coming to these forums I tried to understand the creationist mindset, but now that I've read many threads and added a few posts of my own, I'm left wondering what the point is. You might as well be debating a book, something that has a set amount of unalterable information embedded within it, and no matter how hard you shout at the book you can't get it to re-write itself.

So, yeah, why even bother?

I met one person during my schooling in england that was a young earth creationist...she actually thought satan had buried dinosaur bones to deceive people....sadly it wasnt a joke

why bother? yes why bother...
empty vessels make the most noise as we say in england...

stupid is as stupid does...

...........

The follower of knowledge learns as much as he can every day; The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day. By attrition he reaches a state of inaction Wherein he does nothing, but nothing remains undone. To conquer the world, accomplish nothing; If you must accomplish something, The world remains beyond conquest.

–Tao Te Ching (Chapter 48)​

 

[MSizer]

You know, I see where you're coming from, but if they're not kept in check, they do things like try to get it into school curriculae. So as silly as they are, we have to remember that some of them tend to organize and wield power. Therefore, as non-sensical as it seems to even grant them an ear, we do have to stand up to them IMO.

 

[Baydwin]

You know, I see where you're coming from, but if they're not kept in check, they do things like try to get it into school curriculae. So as silly as they are, we have to remember that some of them tend to organize and wield power. Therefore, as non-sensical as it seems to even grant them an ear, we do have to stand up to them IMO.

I can see why it would be important to keep it out of biology classes, I mean who knows where that could lead, before you know it people will be back to dunking witches and pushing goats of cliffs.
What I was really referring to (although I didn't make it at all clear) was one-on-one personal debates and online debates.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Excellent line from Carlito's Way (Al Pacino)

This guy, this counselor at Lewisburg...



...Mr. Seawald, once said to me:

"Charlie, you run out of steam.

"You can't sprint all the way.
You gotta stop sometime.

"You can't buck it forever.
It catches up to you.

"It gets you.

"You don't get reformed...

"...you just run out of wind."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because, even though you may not reach the person you're debating, your words might reach someone who comes along to causally read the thread.

I was thinking something similar: sometimes, it's worth debating them for the lurkers.

Also, sometimes, even if you can't change the person's mind, you may be able to help them realize that there position isn't as obvious or unassailable as they thought. That might make the difference between teaching it to others as fact and just holding the belief personally.

 

[TheNorthernExodus]

Just adding this, but the word creationist covers many different points of view.
You mostly all know this, so I am not really adding anything to the conversation but as a creationist myself ie holding a belief that the Universe was created prefer to put as much distance between myself and the likes of Ken Ham and Kent "dont drop the soap" Hovind as possible.
I am not saying I am better than they are (well perhaps better than Kent given what we know about him), but I have no conflict with accepted science and I am still a creationist, and that covers a large number of creationists too.
We do not all think the earth is 6000 years old or that cave children kept dinosaurs as pets.
Just saying.

 

[Atruthseeker]

Just adding this, but the word creationist covers many different points of view.
You mostly all know this, so I am not really adding anything to the conversation but as a creationist myself ie holding a belief that the Universe was created find prefer to put as much distance between myself and the likes of Ken Ham and Kent "dont drop the soap" Hovind as possible.
I am not saying I am better than they are (well perhaps better than Kent given what we know about him), but I have no conflict with accepted science and I am still a creationist, and that covers a large number of creationists too.
We do not all think the earth is 6000 years old or that cave children kept dinosaurs as pets.
Just saying.

Watch out dude, they'll be after you now! By the way, I find it funny that everyone else on this page a lived up to the image of those portrayed in Ben Stein's 'Expelled. No Intelligence Allowed. Go check it out EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Official Site

 

[Mikael]

I actually find it most enjoyable discussing this irl. It amazes me to an almost religious degree. I always loved archeology, for example, and when it turned out that a friend of mine actually thought that all pre-homo sapiens cranium finds were fake models I was STUNNED. Now THAT is a feeling that gives one real spiritual energy.

 

[Jose Fly]

Personally, I've been at this in one fashion or another for over a decade. I've never bought the "lurker argument", i.e. that while you may not make any progress with the creationist you're debating, there are silent observers who are sure to see the light. In the decade plus of doing this, I've yet to meet or hear from any of these alleged on-the-fence-lurkers.

I approach each creationist as a clean slate, and always with the hope for at least a decent, intelligent dialog. Sadly, I can probably count on one hand the number of times that's actually happened, whereas the number of what I call "standard internet creationists" (you know what I mean) have been far too numerous to count.

Once it gets to the point where it's obvious the creationist isn't willing or capable of engaging in a meaningful discussion, then I shift into a mindset where I'm in it purely for entertainment. I'm constantly amazed and fascinated by the psychology of denialism.

 

[Autodidact]

All that is required for lies to prevail is for honest people to do nothing.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Well, as you know, I got tricked by a lying Creationist that promised to have a open discussion and ready to learn about the real world as well as I gave him any chance he could to ask questions if he did not understand.

I am clearly a naive fool thinking these people are a decent human beings, how come Christian Fundamentalist are the most evil and apathic people I ever seen? They hate everyone, support wars, death penalties and want to prevent basic human rights to people because they live a different (natural) life then them. They are (the typical internet Creationist you mentioned) truly Evil people. They have no respect for human or other animal life and show no regard for the world we live in, They only care about themselves, that is the problem.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, as you know, I got tricked by a lying Creationist that promised to have a open discussion and ready to learn about the real world as well as I gave him any chance he could to ask questions if he did not understand.

What?!? A dishonest creationist? I'm shocked, I tell you, simply shocked!

 

[Buttons*]

I don't know.... I don't think being a creationist is actually going to HARM anyone. Now, being against gay marriage or against abortion can actually harm people... but belief in creationism? What harm is it really doing to anyone?

Honestly, I know people will say, "But they need SCIENCE! For without it, we are all morons who make mistakes. Religion causes evil! Science is the only truth" ... etc. But really, think about it. How does believing that the world was created by someone rather than a random act of stardust and chemicals make any bit of difference?

 

[Commoner]

I don't know.... I don't think being a creationist is actually going to HARM anyone. Now, being against gay marriage or against abortion can actually harm people... but belief in creationism? What harm is it really doing to anyone?

Honestly, I know people will say, "But they need SCIENCE! For without it, we are all morons who make mistakes. Religion causes evil! Science is the only truth" ... etc. But really, think about it. How does believing that the world was created by someone rather than a random act of stardust and chemicals make any bit of difference?

Creationism is more than simply deism or supernaturalism, it's more than "well, something else must have been going on". Yes, it can do harm, just as any false information can do harm. It's doing harm right now by trying to inject itself into the school system. It provides a platform and a justification for deliberate dishonesty and promotes ignorance. If you don't see misinformation as harmful, then we don't have much in common. If you don't see feeding children false information as harmful, we don't have much in common. If you don't see promoting ignorance as being harmful, we don't have much in common.

Will it harm the particular creationist spewing the nonsense? Maybe, maybe not. Will it harm people around him? Yes. Will promoting ignorance and misinformation harm society as a whole? Yes.

 

[Father Heathen]

Watch out dude, they'll be after you now! By the way, I find it funny that everyone else on this page a lived up to the image of those portrayed in Ben Stein's 'Expelled. No Intelligence Allowed. Go check it out EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Official Site

This movie has been discussed repeatedly on here, and everyone is well aware that it's rife with logical fallacies, inaccuracies, dishonesty and distortions. Ben Stein is a clown who should've stuck to eye drop commercials.

Expelled Exposed: Why Expelled Flunks


But to address the OP, it's always important to stand up for truth and honesty, especially when it comes to the education of children. Plus, debating is fun.

 

[fantome profane]

Just adding this, but the word creationist covers many different points of view.
You mostly all know this, so I am not really adding anything to the conversation but as a creationist myself ie holding a belief that the Universe was created prefer to put as much distance between myself and the likes of Ken Ham and Kent "dont drop the soap" Hovind as possible.
I am not saying I am better than they are (well perhaps better than Kent given what we know about him), but I have no conflict with accepted science and I am still a creationist, and that covers a large number of creationists too.
We do not all think the earth is 6000 years old or that cave children kept dinosaurs as pets.
Just saying.

We have had problems with the terminology before. Generally speaking when the term “Creationist” is used it does not refer to someone who simply believes that “God” is responsible for the creation of the world (life, the universe and everything). Generally it refers to those people like you mentioned who subscribe to and/or promote an anti-science agenda. If people who accept science get lumped into this category it is unfortunate and unintended. Perhaps we should use a different word, but I think the term is far too ingrained now to change it.

I don't know.... I don't think being a creationist is actually going to HARM anyone. Now, being against gay marriage or against abortion can actually harm people... but belief in creationism? What harm is it really doing to anyone?

Honestly, I know people will say, "But they need SCIENCE! For without it, we are all morons who make mistakes. Religion causes evil! Science is the only truth" ... etc. But really, think about it. How does believing that the world was created by someone rather than a random act of stardust and chemicals make any bit of difference?

Like I said above the objection to “creationism” is not so much an objection to the idea that the world was created as much as it is an objection to the absurd ideas that “creationists” promote. You can ask “what difference it makes if people believe the universe was created 6000 years ago?” You can ask what difference it make if people believe the earth is flat, or that the moon is made of green cheese, or that the stars are little diamonds encrusting the black curtain of night. But I think the truth does matter. There are people who base their worldview on these absurd ideas. Have you ever tried to debate gay rights or the abortion issue with someone who believes that the world is only 6000 years old? Think back on that experience. What people believe does matter, it does affect how they act. Maybe it is harmless if someone believes that the moon is green cheese, but if it is acceptable for people to base their ideas of the world on irrational nonsense how can you expect them to act rationally when it does matter?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. – Voltaire