• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why believe in once saved always saved, SOLA rather than Prima Gratia, and Faith VERSUS works?

Shermana

Heretic
Rise:

You call to shermana quoting Matthew 5:20, but have you asked yourself what the problem was with the Pharisees? They kept the letter of the law better than anyone else. They put their faith in their own efforts to adhere to the law as their guarantee of righteousness, but it wasn't enough.
You're talking about the same Pharisees who Jesus called hypocrites and a Brood of Vipers and accused of making up their own rulings like Ritual handwashing while ignoring the weightier matters of the Law like the plight of the poor and orphans? The ones he said were "Straining for gnats while swallowing camels?"

Perhaps I should also bring up his initial reply to the wealthy man.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
It's a good thing you're not correct, because otherwise a serial murderer-rapist who claimed to believe in Jesus would go to heaven just like a perfect saint.

I never said that someone could merely claim to believe and go to heaven.
Someone who truly accepts Christ and undergoes true reprentence in their heart will be saved, regardless of whether or not you want to be their judge for what they did prior to that. Christ is the judge, not us, and he has judged us not guilty if we put our faith in what He did and repent of our sins.
True rep To have "faith" in Jesus means to imitate him and obey his teachings and endure until the end (the other idea of having faith means you can basically ignore almost everything he says)

To have faith in Him is to be willing to seek after those, not necessarily obtain them. It's an issue of the heart.
And someone who decides to do all that near the end of their life is entitled to the same grace. It's a matter of discerning a right heart in someone, a heart inclined towards Him in faith, which is what God ultimately wants, not a matter of earning his grace through a life served in works.

Those who are hired at the end of the day get the same wages as those who started early in the day.
Some in the parable were upset at this, feeling they were entitled to more because they had been working longer.


To have righteousness credited by faith doesn't mean that it's enough righteousness to surpass the scribes and Pharisees. It's just a bit more "good karma" on your record, when you're tested with fire. The real righteousness through faith is through a life time of endurance and perserverance and good discipline, not just saying "Lord Lord". Matthew 7:22-23 shoots down such Theology quite handily, but apparently the memo didn't get to Luther.

Matthew 7 doesn't say anything you just asserted.

Matthew 7 is dealing with those who think their actions qualified them for the Kingdom of Heaven, when all the time they never actually had a relationship with Christ through his Spirit, yielding to Him and being obedient.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
I never said that someone could merely claim to believe and go to heaven.
But then there'd be works involved, as James says, and nowhere does it say that works are merely the "fruit" or "effect" of being saved. Even James seems to agree that they had true faith and believed with all their heart, but he still called their faith dead. Thus, one cannot truly "believe with all their heart" and be saved if they aren't doing works. To say that works are the fruit of the saved is to read beyond anything in James and to not read it at face value. There's a reason he repeats this 5 times in a row. A lot of people seemed to need it drilled in that Faith, no matter how much, without works, does NOT save. It is dead faith.

Someone who truly accepts Christ and undergoes true reprentence in their heart will be saved, regardless of whether or not you want to be their judge for what they did prior to that.
Define "True repentance" exactly. If an unrepentant sinner still sins and is thus not saved, how is that not an issue of works and the Law? Are you saying that all true believers no longer sin? What's your definition of "Sin"? 1 John says that anyone who claims to know Christ but refuses to obey the commandments is a "liar". Looks like we have lots and lots of liars.

Christ is the judge, not us, and he has judged us not guilty if we put our faith in what He did and repent of our sins.
But you just said that claiming to believe doesn't make you saved. So by your interpretation of having faith (As opposed to obeying his teachings and imitating him), that would mean that you believe just by believing you're saved. Now for this "True repentance" part, how is that not a work? What does it mean to repent exactly?

To have faith in Him is to be willing to seek after those, not necessarily obtain them. It's an issue of the heart.
That doesn't give specifics by any means. What is an 'Issue of the heart" exactly? Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly implies those who continue to sin have nothing but firy indigniation to look forward to. Paul says unrepentant sinners won't go to the Kingdom. The definition of "sin" is "Lawlessness". The Luke warm are cast out for not having sufficient works. Therefore, your actions are very much involved with your salvation. It's not just an "issue of the heart", it's very much "An issue of what you do with your body".

And someone who decides to do all that near the end of their life is entitled to the same grace.
Nothing in the text supports this.

It's a matter of discerning a right heart in someone, a heart inclined towards Him in faith, which is what God ultimately wants, not a matter of earning his grace through a life served in works.
So wouldn't having a "heart inclined towards him" and repenting of your sins mean a change of actions and a dedication? What's the point of "enduring until the end" and "Winning the race"? What endurance?
Those who are hired at the end of the day get the same wages as those who started early in the day.
That's not the context, it's about how those in the end times will have the reward as those who've heard the message from the beginning, but due to their works nonetheless.
Some in the parable were upset at this, feeling they were entitled to more because they had been working longer.
Longer. But still working. Perhaps those in the end times (at least of the age in question) will have much more work to do in their short times.




Matthew 7 doesn't say anything you just asserted.

Matthew 7 is dealing with those who think their actions qualified them for the Kingdom of Heaven, when all the time they never actually had a relationship with Christ through his Spirit, yielding to Him and being obedient
So why does he call them "Doers of Lawlessness" and say that they didn't do God's will? Do you not associate yielding to him and being obedient as obeying what he teaches to do? What's the point of even listening to Jesus's teachings if there's no other action required but to have faith in his sacrifice? Surely you don't think that's all the Gospels says Jesus teaches, right? Matthew 7 doesn't really say much about having a relationship with him per se, and the preceding context is about "bad trees bearing bad fruit", it's all about them being "lawless" and not doing God's will, and in context, doing God's will is all about good works. What is a good tree that bears good fruit? One who preaches Christ?

There's no point in "Striving" for the narrow gate if all you have to do is "believe with all your heart".

Why is it that 'many will be called but few will be chosen"? Will only a few believe enough with their heart?
 
Last edited:

Rise

Well-Known Member
But then there'd be works involved, as James says, and nowhere does it say that works are merely the "fruit" or "effect" of being saved.

First you have to define what "works" means to you.
I've said that works in the context of James 2 is obedience to God. Obedience to what He says being a sign of true faith, a heart set on God, an active relationship.
James seems to agree that they had true faith and believed with all their heart, but he still called their faith dead.
I did not use the words "believed with all their heart".
In fact John is saying they DON'T have true faith, that's the whole point.

Look here:
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

He said they merely believed there was one God, like a mental acknowledgement of a fact, but then goes on to say that if they truly had faith in God then it would manifest in their actions.

There are two different greek words used here for "faith" and "believe"
The word faith implies a a fidelity to God, a trust put in him to follow Him. Not merely a passive belief that He is who He says He is.
To say that works are the fruit of the saved is to read beyond anything in James and to not read it at face value.
As I said above, the whole point he is making here is that if they had true faith then that would manifest in their actions, in obedience.
 
Define "True repentance" exactly.
Believing that your ways are wrong and God's ways are right.
God discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows if you have truly repented or if are just mouthing the words.
If an unrepentant sinner still sins and is thus not saved, how is that not an issue of works and the Law?
How do you define being saved?
How do you define works?
 
It's not your actions that save you, it's your heart set on repentence that saves you and then evidence of that heart will manifest in your actions.
God discerns the intents of the heart. Right action with wrong motive will get you nowhere.
In fact, and this goes into the next point I'm going to make in the next quote, repentence isn't even something we can boast in because simply being in the Spirit of God that brings conviction to our hearts and gives us a desire to follow His ways over our own ways. We can ask him for stronger conviction and desire, but it's going to be through what His Spirit does in us that we'll be able to walk that out, not our own attempts at fleshly discipline.
Are you saying that all true believers no longer sin? What's your definition of "Sin"? 1 John says that anyone who claims to know Christ but refuses to obey the commandments is a "liar". Looks like we have lots and lots of liars.
1 John 3
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 
Sin is disobedience and rebellion to God's ways.
 
When we are abiding in Him we can't sin, our desire to will simply vanish.
Abiding is nothing we can boast in. It's not by effort or straining we abide, but by effortless surrender to Him, a willingness to let go of what we shouldn't be holding on to. It can be as easy or as difficult as we want to make it out to be.
 
Last edited:

Rise

Well-Known Member
But you just said that claiming to believe doesn't make you saved.
Claming to believe implies falsehood, so yes.
So by your interpretation of having faith (As opposed to obeying his teachings and imitating him), that would mean that you believe just by believing you're saved. Now for this "True repentance" part, how is that not a work? What does it mean to repent exactly?
That doesn't give specifics by any means. What is an 'Issue of the heart" exactly? Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly implies those who continue to sin have nothing but firy indigniation to look forward to.

I believe I already addressed that with my last post. If you need more clarification let me know.
 
The Luke warm are cast out for not having sufficient works.
Where?

Quote:
And someone who decides to do all that near the end of their life is entitled to the same grace.

Nothing in the text supports this.
Yes, it does. The thief on the cross inclined his heart towards Jesus at the end of his life, and Jesus assured him that he would be with Him.
You don't earn your ticket to heaven by a life served in works, you do it by making a choice to repent in your heart and turn to the truth of Christ.
Therefore, your actions are very much involved with your salvation. It's not just an "issue of the heart", it's very much "An issue of what you do with your body".
What did the thief do with his body other than confess his belief in and acceptance of Christ?
It was in his heart that Christ discerned the truth of his repentence.

So wouldn't having a "heart inclined towards him" and repenting of your sins mean a change of actions and a dedication?'
Yes, that's the point. But it starts with the heart. And his Spirit is the one who works that conviction out to action in us.
 
Zechariah 4
‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.
7 "What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground.
Matthew 21
21 Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
 
Mountains are taken as things that are stumbling blocks to God's will in our life, but by faith we can speak and through His Spirit they can be removed.
We voice His will to have them removed in our life, coming into agreement with His will for us, and His Spirit makes it happen in us.
We can no more boast about the transformation that takes place in us than we can boast about moving a physical mountain.
 
What's the point of "enduring until the end" and "Winning the race"? What endurance?
What about it?
Look up all the scriptures that deal with endurance. He's talking about enduring for the sake of others, and enduring for rewards/blessings. Ie. the place to rule and reign with Him. The crowns he puts on us, which we end up casting at his feet anyway.
No where is endurance linked with the forgiveness of your sins. That would give you something to boast about then, as one who endured to earn something Christ intended to give away freely.
Endurance is something that comes out of love of what God has promised and a love of serving others for His sake. It is not so that we earn what he has already given to all as a free gift if only they are willing to recieve and appropriate it into their lifes (forgiveness of sins and restoration)
 
Romans 4
4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:
7 "Oh, what joy for those
whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of sin."[b]
16 So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. 17 That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, "I have made you the father of many nations."[d] This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who creates new things out of nothing.
 
 
That's not the context, it's about how those in the end times will have the reward as those who've heard the message from the beginning, but due to their works nonetheless.
The context is laborers who are jealous that others got the same rewards for less work.
 
8 "That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. 9 When those hired at five o’clock were paid, each received a full day’s wage. 10 When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day’s wage. 11 When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, 12 ‘Those people worked only one hour, and yet you’ve paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.’
13 "He answered one of them, ‘Friend, I haven’t been unfair! Didn’t you agree to work all day for the usual wage? 14 Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. 15 Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?’
 
It has to do with the fact that in the end times people will get the benefits of the rewards a lot easier than those who came before them.
 
The reason I bought it up is beacuse it seems to reflect the same spirit that drives someone to complain about the thief on the cross recieving the same forgiveness as someone who spent their whole life in service to God, like the brother who complained about the prodigal son. That person was missing he point of their service if they thought they were working for what God had already given them freely through inheritence. They merely had to recieve.


So why does he call them "Doers of Lawlessness" and say that they didn't do God's will? Do you not associate yielding to him and being obedient as obeying what he teaches to do? What's the point of even listening to Jesus's teachings if there's no other action required but to have faith in his sacrifice? Surely you don't think that's all the Gospels says Jesus teaches, right? Matthew 7 doesn't really say much about having a relationship with him per se, and the preceding context is about "bad trees bearing bad fruit", it's all about them being "lawless" and not doing God's will, and in context, doing God's will is all about good works. What is a good tree that bears good fruit? One who preaches Christ?

Look at the context as one who abides in Christ bears fruit to righteousness:
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [n]excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will [o]fully know them by their fruits.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
 
He's saying that many will come to him saying they believe, and having done works, but that they never actually knew Him, they didn't have an authentic abiding relationship that bore fruit to righteousness.
Those who truly believe and repent will want to abide to bear the fruit of righteousness. The key is knowing where your righteousness comes from, abiding in Him as a gift from Him, but not by forcing yourself in the flesh to do what you think is right. That kind of striving will only beat you down and bear little fruit in relation to all the effort expended. The real fruit comes from simply abiding and recieving as a gift his righteousness in you, not anything you can boast about.
There's no point in "Striving" for the narrow gate if all you have to do is "believe with all your heart".

Why is it that 'many will be called but few will be chosen"? Will only a few believe enough with their heart?
As I already pointed out, I never used the words believe with all your heart, and your definition of believe in their heart is not the same as the way I used it.
 
 
 
 
Last edited:
Top