Why believe in once saved always saved, SOLA rather than Prima Gratia, and Faith VERSUS works?

[Shiranui117]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

 

[rusra02]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

Thanks for your post. You make excellent and correct points about our need to exert ourselves to attain salvation. Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door." (Luke 13:24) He also said "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." (Matthew 24:13) "Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail." (2 Peter 1:10) One could go on and on with other scriptures that shows a Christian must be faithful in order to gain salvation. OSAS is unscriptural.
You are also correct in saying we cannot earn our salvation. It is a free gift of God, one we could never earn. (Romans 6:23)

 

[Shermana]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

If sin is "Lawlessness", and the doers of Lawlessness are rejected, and to say one knows Jesus while refusing to obey "the commandments" is a "liar", and repentance is to go back to obedience to the commandments, for what reason is "Works of the Law" so condemned exactly? A total misunderstanding of Galatians perhaps. Surely Jesus is clear that anyone who teaches to break the Least of the commandments will be called "The least" in the Kingdom. Why would he "not come except for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel", and why would he say "Listen to them for they sit on the Seat of Moses", if there was no tie to the Law? It seems that this oft-misunderstood concept of "Grace" is more about the forgiveness one achieves through the sacrifice of Jesus for their past "sins" (i.e. breaking of the law/commandments). Why would Jesus even bother making a spiel about making up with your brother before offering gifts on the altar if this advice was to be voided 3 days later?

As for why Christians seem overwhelmingly opposed to "works", it seems they want absolutely no inconvenience or stress on whether they're "good enough to be saved", even though it's quite clear that one's works are weighed and balanced. It seems they often ignore how in Revelation, the "Lukewarm" who are spat out were spat due to their lack of good works. Also, the idea of "knowing you are saved" is a very recent, post-Lutheran idea, even the orthodox held the idea of "knowing you are saved" as heretical. They go so far as to invent totally unscriptural interpretations that "Works are the fruit of the saved" (and in 99 out of 100 times when asked what works specifically are unique fruit of the saved, the crickets chirp or they say "To teach the gospel"). No need to read James' words plainly (which he emphasizes 5 times in a row), you can just twist what he plainly says into something he doesn't say to support the "anti-works" concept.

It seems to be totally about insecurity, laziness, apathy, and bogus (Cherry picked) exegetical approaches which supports the "Grace alone" mentality, let alone OSAS.

 

[jtartar]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

Shiranui,
I love your questions!! There are satisfying answers to all your questions, right from the greatest Book ever written, The Holy Bible.
I have studied the Bible for more than fifty years and I have never been able to find anything about, Once saved always saved. The truth is every part of the Bible starting with Genesis pseems to prove this idea false.
I imagine that Adam was saved, in his perfect state before sinning. He was not always saved, was he??? If he had continued to be in the saved condition, he would still be alive today, instead of now being dust, Gen 2:17, 3:19. Cain the same!
The entire nation of Israel was in a Covenant relation with God, therefore in a saved condition, but all of the grown Israelites were not allowed to enter the promised land, because of losing God's favor.
There are many I could mention. What about Judas Iscariot, one of the apostles?? Definitely not still saved, Luke 22:21,22, John 17:12.
Paul, who was picked to be an apostle by both God and Jesus, mentioned that even he could get out of God's favor, 1Cor 9:27. Paul told the disciples to keep testing to make sure they were still in the faith, 2Cor 13:5. Consider also Col 1:21-23.
Paul mentioned in Romans that only a Remnant of the Jews would be saved, when all of them were in a Covenant relationship with God, Rom 9:27, 11:5. They were not saved because they did not accept God's own son as the Messiah, the savior of the world.
The fact is this being once saved and always saved, is explained very clearly in Eze:3:20, 18:24, 33:13.

 

[e.r.m.]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

Agreed. According to the Bible, the definition of works is not equal to 'anything we do', but rather placing faith in the actions themselves without God, Romans 9:31-32. No conflict in fulfilling what God calls us to do to be saved, since that is not works.

 

[Shiranui117]

Agreed. According to the Bible, the definition of works is not equal to 'anything we do', but rather placing faith in the actions themselves without God, Romans 9:31-32. No conflict in fulfilling what God calls us to do to be saved, since that is not works.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying, and perhaps you can clarify. In the meantime, I will explain my position more fully: In Scripture, there is a clear and marked difference between "good works" and "dead works."

"Good works" are human works that are in accordance with God's will, and one cannot have faith without good works. By doing good works, not only does one live out the faith in a proper manner, but we are also brought closer to God. We are also called "God's fellow workers, and should work out our own salvation "with fear and trembing."

James 2:14-26: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Hebrews 10:24-25 "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." <--Also notice the reference to not forsaking the gathering together in church

Now, ON THE OTHER HAND, one has dead works, which run contradictory to the works of faith. These do not bring salvation, and can actually lead to a mindset that is contradictory to being saved as a Christian. Works of the law are often included in this.

From Galatians 3:10-11 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Galatians 5:2-6 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 9:13-15
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Note in Hebrews 6:1-2, how dead works are clearly contrasted to good works, among good works being baptism, confirmation and Holy Orders: Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Shermana]

Agreed. According to the Bible, the definition of works is not equal to 'anything we do', but rather placing faith in the actions themselves without God, Romans 9:31-32. No conflict in fulfilling what God calls us to do to be saved, since that is not works.

So when James says that "Faith without works is dead" and when the Lukewarm are cast away because "their works are neither hot or cold", that has nothing to do with actions and what "They do"? Obviously works must be done with Faith, but what does that mean exactly?

 

[e.r.m.]

So when James says that "Faith without works is dead" and when the Lukewarm are cast away because "their works are neither hot or cold", that has nothing to do with actions and what "They do"? Obviously works must be done with Faith, but what does that mean exactly?

When people say, I can go to heaven or be saved because I'm a good person. I feed the poor, I'm honest, I recycle, etc. That is works, because they think they're getting themselves to heaven, instead of God. There is no faith in God. I believe this idea is what they're referring to in Ephesians 2:8, not by works, so that no man can boast.

 

[Shermana]

When people say, I can go to heaven or be saved because I'm a good person. I feed the poor, I'm honest, I recycle, etc. That is works, because they think they're getting themselves to heaven, instead of God. There is no faith in God. I believe this idea is what they're referring to in Ephesians 2:8, not by works, so that no man can boast.

I'm not sure if that's even what Ephesians 2:8 is saying, and I believe its "True" interpretation in fact clashes with James and other works by Paul, which may be part of the evidence in that Ephesians is most likely a later forgery not written by Paul (an opinion shared by the majority of scholars apparently, even James Moffat).

Even then, with this interpretation, all it is is against people's perception that their works are sufficient as opposed to Heaven's perception.

We can clearly see that sufficient works ARE necessary to be not rejected as Luke warm.

 

[Rise]

Seriously, it's been really bugging me lately. Faith and good works were never opposed to one another before the 1500's, they were complementary and parts of one another. It's works of the LAW which were condemned. These are completely separate from good works.

And then there's the notion that we do absolutely nothing for our own salvation. Why, then, are we told to repent? Why are we given instructions on how to live a Christian life? Why are we called God's fellow workers? Sure, God's work is far more important, and we cannot save ourselves; we need God's grace. But what do people have against us as Christians COOPERATING with God for our salvation? We clearly have our own part to play in repenting and following God's will. It's not like we're being saved against our own will.

And don't even get me started on Once Saved, Always Saved...

Jesus didn't do "good works", he did whatever he saw the Father doing, which is always Good.
Jesus didn't go around saying "I need to fill up my quota of good deeds today, let me figure out something I can do". He did only what he saw the Father doing, said only what he heard the Father saying.

That is what we are called to be like: Someone who is obedient to the Word of God through His Spirit.

The only cooperation involved in our salvation is submission to the will of God, obedience to his direction.
And even that has nothing to do with our own effort or skill - But by allowing the Holy Spirit to work on our hearts and minds to transform our very nature to be more Christ like.
It is futile to try to work ourselves into this state of submission through sheer willpower and effort, because we'll never obtain it. The whole point of the law was to show us that we can't do it under our own strength, we can't force ourselves to be righteous by rules and regulations and forced actions, we need God to work in us supernaturally to actually change our way of thinking, to give us a new heart, to lead us by his Spirit about what is right to do in every situation.

Why do you think at the end of the age we will be casting our crowns at the feet of Jesus? Because we'll be acknowledging that our overcoming of sin had absolutely nothing to do with our own self effort, it was ALL Him working in us and through us.

 

[Shiranui117]

Jesus didn't do "good works", he did whatever he saw the Father doing, which is always Good.
Jesus didn't go around saying "I need to fill up my quota of good deeds today, let me figure out something I can do". He did only what he saw the Father doing, said only what he heard the Father saying.

Yes, and He did whatever good He could. We have no "quota." You misunderstand the concept of "good works."

The entire idea of good works is embodied perfectly in the Two Greatest Commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your strength, with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Doing good works consists of obeying and working with God, as well as taking care of our brothers and sisters in this world, as we are constantly told to do. "Whoever does unto the least of my brethren, he does unto Me."

That is what we are called to be like: Someone who is obedient to the Word of God through His Spirit.

The only cooperation involved in our salvation is submission to the will of God, obedience to his direction.
And even that has nothing to do with our own effort or skill - But by allowing the Holy Spirit to work on our hearts and minds to transform our very nature to be more Christ like.
It is futile to try to work ourselves into this state of submission through sheer willpower and effort, because we'll never obtain it. The whole point of the law was to show us that we can't do it under our own strength, we can't force ourselves to be righteous by rules and regulations and forced actions, we need God to work in us supernaturally to actually change our way of thinking, to give us a new heart, to lead us by his Spirit about what is right to do in every situation.

Why do you think at the end of the age we will be casting our crowns at the feet of Jesus? Because we'll be acknowledging that our overcoming of sin had absolutely nothing to do with our own self effort, it was ALL Him working in us and through us.

Congratulations! You said the same thing I already have. Glad to know we agree. We can't do it ourselves, we do need God. However, following God in and of itself is a work. Living a life of faith is a work. Heck, believing is a work.

I'm curious to see what you would make of the Orthodox concept of "Theosis."

 

[Rise]

Nowhere in the bible will you find it saying Jesus did "whatever good he could do" - Instead it tells us that He did only what he saw the Father doing. -John 5:19
Everything the Father wants to do is good, so He did good wherever he went, but He did not go around and decide in His own mind to do whatever seemed like a good deed to Him.


Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith&#8212;and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God&#8212; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10

We don't do good deeds to earn our salvation. If that were the case it would give cause to boast.
Good deeds merely are a natural outflowing of who we are.
We don't do good deeds to earn God's love, we do good deeds because we are loved and it just flows out of us naturally as a part of who we are.

John 15:5
5 &#8220;I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6

That is what James talks about when he said faith without works is dead. Works do NOT bring life to us. We don't produce life ourselves with our works.
But if someone is truly alive spiritually then they will manifest who they are naturally with fruit.
The fruit is proof of a living connection to the vine. - John 15:8


Bearing this fruit has nothing to do with our own self effort, only our willingness to let Christ work in us and through us. It is a choice of submission.
That concept is where you find freedom, because the burden is no longer on you but on Christ to complete the work in you:

Phillipians 1:6
"6 And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you."

1 Thessalonians 23
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

 

[Shiranui117]

Nowhere in the bible will you find it saying Jesus did "whatever good he could do" - Instead it tells us that He did only what he saw the Father doing. -John 5:19
Everything the Father wants to do is good, so He did good wherever he went, but He did not go around and decide in His own mind to do whatever seemed like a good deed to Him.

This is true, but is Christ's mind not also the mind of God, Christ Himself being God the Son?

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith&#8212;and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God&#8212; 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10

We don't do good deeds to earn our salvation. If that were the case it would give cause to boast.

We don't do good deeds to earn God's love,

Which is exactly what I've been saying.

we do good deeds because we are loved and it just flows out of us naturally as a part of who we are. Good deeds merely are a natural outflowing of who we are.

This is true of us once our wills are conformed to God's, but don't forget that it is also in our nature to do evil, and we need to restrain these sinful urges. You can pray to God to take away temptation all you want, but it's up to us to resist sin when temptation comes.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

James 1:22-27 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one&#8217;s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

John 15:5
5 &#8220;I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

That is what James talks about when he said faith without works is dead. Works do NOT bring life to us. We don't produce life ourselves with our works.
But if someone is truly alive spiritually then they will manifest who they are naturally with fruit.
The fruit is proof of a living connection to the vine. - John 15:8

Bearing this fruit has nothing to do with our own self effort, only our willingness to let Christ work in us and through us. It is a choice of submission.
That concept is where you find freedom, because the burden is no longer on you but on Christ to complete the work in you:

Phillipians 1:6
"6 And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that He Who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of His return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you."

1 Thessalonians 23
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

This is all true. But we must ABIDE in Christ. Abiding is an act. God will not abide in Himself for us. We must work to abide in Christ, the source of Life. I never said that works bring us life. But by cooperating with God and doing godly works and acting in a godly manner, we draw near to God, the Source of Life. Yet this is not possible merely on our own works; we need God's grace.

In essence, you and I are agreed in the necessity of works and faith. We are also agreed that God's grace is far more important than faith and works. We are ALSO agreed that we cannot save ourselves with faith and works; we need God.

I've done this long enough to know when there is actual disagreement vs. the illusion of disagreement. You and I only have an illusion of disagreement; we share the same mind on this issue. If you fee we have an actual disagreement, feel free to explain what you think the disagreement is.

 

[Rise]

- Jesus put on himself all the limitations of a man. He wasn't doing anything we couldn't ideally do under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

- The necessity of being obedient to his Spirit and Word in resisting temptation, and doing what he has told you to do, is not a work done to earn salvation. It is a byproduct of our salvation. It is a result of the work Christ did on our behalf.
Furthermore, merely knowing what to do is not enough, as Paul tells us in Romans. The law told us what to do but we were powerless to actually do it.
Resisting temptation has nothing to do with our own effort, it has to do with a surrendering to Christ. Something which also comes by asking him to work that out in us. it starts with a desire, and yielding to him. It never has anything to do with trying harder on our part. You can't beat an addiction to a sin by trying harder, you'll keep falling back into the same trap of the sin until you yield to Christ and let him transform your mind and heart to the point where you desire Him more than you desire the sin, where the sin begins to look repulsive to you because you see it as a barrier between you and Him.
You end up not sinning as a result of who He changed you to be, not because you tried hard to change your behavior. You can discipline your own behavior without actually seeing any internal transformation, a rooting out and removal of the source that causes you to want to sin. Christ will actually give you a new nature that no longer desires such things, so it's easy to resist the sin.

- Faith is the only necessity. Everything else comes out of that.
You don't get saved based on your works.
You do get rewards at the judgement seat of Christ based on what you did, but you don't get saved based on you did. And even then, we end up casting our crowns at his feat anyway because we realize it wasn't by our effort we actually achieved those.
You don't get saved by bearing fruit. The fruit doesn't save you, but the fruit is evidence that you actually have saving faith, that you've made a choice to yield to God's rulership over your life.
It's an important distinction to make, because otherwise there would be a temptation to assume that one can mimic the attributes of a fruit bearer and be just as well off in terms of salvation. Submission of the heart is what he's after. You can't hold onto your heart and do what you think He wants you to do and expect salvation, those are the people who will be turned away at the end time saying "lord, lord, have we not done many things in your name" but Jesus turns them away saying "I never knew you".

I'll go further and say there is a more subtle form of deception that goes along with that mindset:
It's not good enough either to say "I mentally acknowledge that what is said of Jesus is true", and then make a decision to go out and try to do good deeds in his name and call it the fruit of the spirit. If it's truly the fruit of the spirit it will naturally be something you want to do, it won't be something you begrudgingly force youself to do to prove to yourself or other people that you are in right standing with God.
Someone who is led by the spirit and manifesting fruit won't be sitting around wringing their hands thinking to themselves, "I've got to do more good deeds, I've got to do more as a demonstration that I'm saved". They will have a desire to do certain things God has moved or called them to do, and be happy doing it.

 

[Shermana]

Rise:

You don't get saved based on your works.

"Verily your righteousness must exceed the scribes and Pharisees if you wish to enter the Kingdom". That's about as quota-based as it gets.

 

[Shiranui117]

- Jesus put on himself all the limitations of a man. He wasn't doing anything we couldn't ideally do under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

-The necessity of being obedient to his Spirit and Word in resisting temptation, and doing what he has told you to do, is not a work done to earn salvation. It is a byproduct of our salvation. It is a result of the work Christ did on our behalf.
Furthermore, merely knowing what to do is not enough, as Paul tells us in Romans. The law told us what to do but we were powerless to actually do it.
Resisting temptation has nothing to do with our own effort, it has to do with a surrendering to Christ. Something which also comes by asking him to work that out in us. it starts with a desire, and yielding to him. It never has anything to do with trying harder on our part. You can't beat an addiction to a sin by trying harder, you'll keep falling back into the same trap of the sin until you yield to Christ and let him transform your mind and heart to the point where you desire Him more than you desire the sin, where the sin begins to look repulsive to you because you see it as a barrier between you and Him.
You end up not sinning as a result of who He changed you to be, not because you tried hard to change your behavior. You can discipline your own behavior without actually seeing any internal transformation, a rooting out and removal of the source that causes you to want to sin. Christ will actually give you a new nature that no longer desires such things, so it's easy to resist the sin.

Resisting temptation has EVERYTHING to do with our own effort. It takes effort just to conform ourselves to God's will. Being a Christian has never been easy; ours is a demanding faith that requires strong self-control, humility, awareness, clarity of thought, discernment, wisdom and perseverance.

- Faith is the only necessity. Everything else comes out of that.

I have already shown that such is not the case. One needs both faith AND works, as clearly demonstrated in James and throughout the Bible. Shermana posted another good Scripture outlining this.

You don't get saved based on your works.
You do get rewards at the judgement seat of Christ based on what you did, but you don't get saved based on you did. And even then, we end up casting our crowns at his feat anyway because we realize it wasn't by our effort we actually achieved those.
You don't get saved by bearing fruit. The fruit doesn't save you, but the fruit is evidence that you actually have saving faith, that you've made a choice to yield to God's rulership over your life.

It's an important distinction to make, because otherwise there would be a temptation to assume that one can mimic the attributes of a fruit bearer and be just as well off in terms of salvation. Submission of the heart is what he's after. You can't hold onto your heart and do what you think He wants you to do and expect salvation, those are the people who will be turned away at the end time saying "lord, lord, have we not done many things in your name" but Jesus turns them away saying "I never knew you".

Which is all stuff we've already agreed on. I'm going to ask you to stay off of things we've already agreed on; there is no point in bringing it up further.

I'll go further and say there is a more subtle form of deception that goes along with that mindset:
It's not good enough either to say "I mentally acknowledge that what is said of Jesus is true", and then make a decision to go out and try to do good deeds in his name and call it the fruit of the spirit. If it's truly the fruit of the spirit it will naturally be something you want to do, it won't be something you begrudgingly force youself to do to prove to yourself or other people that you are in right standing with God.

I agree that, when one has faith, good works can come easy. However, there is still a struggle against sin that we need to be concerned with, a struggle that inhibits our ability to always act selflessly and in accordance with God's will.

Someone who is led by the spirit and manifesting fruit won't be sitting around wringing their hands thinking to themselves, "I've got to do more good deeds, I've got to do more as a demonstration that I'm saved". They will have a desire to do certain things God has moved or called them to do, and be happy doing it.

Salvation is not a one-time event, or a definite state. Salvation is a process. Yes, we HAVE been saved. But we are also still BEING saved. So works are not really a "demonstration" of something we have already attained to by the grace of God, but they are a part of the process of salvation. Salvation is something that we need to work at, cooperating with the grace of God.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" (Philippians 2:12 "For we are God&#8217;s fellow workers." (1 Corinthians 3:9)

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Plus, where does it even say in the Bible that works are merely a demonstration that we're saved? I'd like to see you defend this position.

 

[Rise]

Rise:

"Verily your righteousness must exceed the scribes and Pharisees if you wish to enter the Kingdom". That's about as quota-based as it gets.

It's a good thing we aren't judged righteous by our works, but credited as righteous by our faith in the work Jesus did for us.

 

[Awoon]

It's a good thing we aren't judged righteous by our works, but credited as righteous by our faith in the work Jesus did for us.

People are judged rightous and unrightous regardless of what Jesus did.

 

[Shermana]

It's a good thing we aren't judged righteous by our works, but credited as righteous by our faith in the work Jesus did for us.

It's a good thing you're not correct, because otherwise a serial murderer-rapist who claimed to believe in Jesus would go to heaven just like a perfect saint. To have "faith" in Jesus means to imitate him and obey his teachings and endure until the end (the other idea of having faith means you can basically ignore almost everything he says) , the idea of merely having faith as the only requisite is a very recent, post-Protestant development that the early Orthodox Church (or earlier Nazarenes) had no idea of, and basically ignores 99% of what Jesus, Paul, Jude, and James and John and the book of Revelation teaches. I can see how it can be convenient for those who are insecure about the idea of having to actually be righteous though. Your view would only be correct by snipping out a few verses out of their context and tossing out practically the whole NT, especially Jesus's own teachings.

To have righteousness credited by faith doesn't mean that it's enough righteousness to surpass the scribes and Pharisees. It's just a bit more "good karma" on your record, when you're tested with fire. The real righteousness through faith is through a life time of endurance and perserverance and good discipline, not just saying "Lord Lord". Matthew 7:22-23 shoots down such Theology quite handily, but apparently the memo didn't get to Luther.

 

[Rise]

Resisting temptation has EVERYTHING to do with our own effort. It takes effort just to conform ourselves to God's will.

If that were true, then Paul would not have said this:


For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.




It sure does take effort to conform to God's will if you're trying to do it out of your own flesh.
But that's not what he is calling us to do. He's calling us to live by His Spirit in Romans. The annoiting breaks the yoke, not our effort:

Isaiah 10:27:
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

I have already shown that such is not the case. One needs both faith AND works, as clearly demonstrated in James and throughout the Bible. Shermana posted another good Scripture outlining this.

Need them for what exactly?
And what do you define as works?

Works is not just "good deeds". In the context of James 2, a work is when Abraham acts upon what God has told them to do out of faith.
It is obedience, submission, an activation of their faith.
That is why James calls it the completion of Faith, taking faith and stepping out to match an action to that faith

The only thing God requires of us is the faith to obey Him, and only by living through his Spirit can we hope to obey him. Fleshly effort on our part can't achieve the kind of obedience he calls us to, as Romans points out.

You call to shermana quoting Matthew 5:20, but have you asked yourself what the problem was with the Pharisees? They kept the letter of the law better than anyone else. They put their faith in their own efforts to adhere to the law as their guarantee of righteousness, but it wasn't enough.

Salvation is not a one-time event, or a definite state. Salvation is a process. Yes, we HAVE been saved. But we are also still BEING saved. So works are not really a "demonstration" of something we have already attained to by the grace of God, but they are a part of the process of salvation. Salvation is something that we need to work at, cooperating with the grace of God.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" (Philippians 2:12 "For we are God’s fellow workers." (1 Corinthians 3:9)

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Ephesians 2:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The word for saved here is sozo, and deals with the saving faith that rescues us from the penalties of judgement.

The word in philippians is soteria, and implies something different: a complete deliverance from our enemies. That is something that is imputed to us as a right upon sozo, but not something which we experience as a complete reality until we surrender ourselves fully to Christ.
The word for "work out" is also katergazomai, and implies that which results from an initial cause. The initial cause would in this case be our sozo rebirth, which results in a working out of that to manifest as soteria.

You don't need to experience soteria in it's fullness, in this life, to have your sins forgiven through christ.

We were created in Christ to do good works. We don't do good works to be saved. He prepared them for us and we walk into them by faith and obedience to Him. It has nothing to do with our effort, because if it did then we'd have cause to boast as one who expended more effort than someone else and thus gained more as a result of our effort.
We step into these when we obey him. It comes down to being obedience to the spirit again, not effort.


2 corinthians 2:15 is sozo, but is also taken out of context, because it can easily be read as being in the midst of those who are in the process of recieving sozo. The next verse would support that reading because it talks about their aroma being that of life leading others to life.
The message bible would be one that paraphrases it in that context:
14-16 In the Messiah, in Christ, God leads us from place to place in one perpetual victory parade. Through us, he brings knowledge of Christ. Everywhere we go, people breathe in the exquisite fragrance. Because of Christ, we give off a sweet scent rising to God, which is recognized by those on the way of salvation—an aroma redolent with life. But those on the way to destruction treat us more like the stench from a rotting corpse.

Plus, where does it even say in the Bible that works are merely a demonstration that we're saved? I'd like to see you defend this position.

You'd first have to define what you mean by works.
A lot of things people call works are actually the fruit of the spirit, and the fruit of the spirit is a demonstration that we reside in Christ (which is then a demonstration that we are also sozo, saved)