Why are Muslims killing each other?

[Caladan]

So what, if anything, can be done?

Should the rest of the world build a fence around the Middle East, wait for the dust to settle, then have a look to see if anyone is still there? Given the endemic barbarity of the region, I don't see any other practical course to take.

Well why should anything 'be done'?, so far western involvement has been for economical and political interests, the middle east might have its internal conflicts, but western powers have been invading the region for their foreign interests as well, and European corporations have exploited the regional strife for economic reasons as well. so in a sense, every influential player is involved.
The region may seem barbaric to others, but have no doubt that many of the people of the region feel the same animosity to what they perceive to be the decay of western societies, and you'll be surprised how right on the money they can be on many issues.

 

[Revoltingest]

So what, if anything, can be done?

Ain't that the crux of the whole thing? I don't care much about who prevails, only that it be done with a minimum of carnage & cost. I blame Jews, Xtians,
Muslims, America, the UN, Dems, Repubs & geography, but blame is irrelevant, since it is what it is. The only solution I see is one which I use to manipulate
people when I negotiate testy disputes - recognize & mitigate emotional needs. It could take as little as just acknowledging or apologizing for a perceived
wrong. I suggest that Israel & America start addressing Palestinian grievances by admitting their sins & showing sincerity by giving some real ground even
before negotiations fully begin. Avoid distracting posturing like arguing over who admits who has a right to exist.

Sure, it might not work. But I guarantee that they'll be at each others' throats for eternity if they don't do something different from past failures.

 

[Caladan]

Ain't that the crux of the whole thing? I don't care much about who prevails, only that it be done with a minimum of carnage & cost. I blame Jews, Xtians,
Muslims, America, the UN, Dems, Repubs & geography, but blame is irrelevant, since it is what it is. The only solution I see is one which I use to manipulate
people when I negotiate testy disputes - recognize & mitigate emotional needs. It could take as little as just acknowledging or apologizing for a perceived
wrong. I suggest that Israel & America start addressing Palestinian grievances by admitting their sins & showing sincerity by giving some real ground even
before negotiations fully begin. Avoid distracting posturing like arguing over who admits who has a right to exist.

Sure, it might not work. But I guarantee that they'll be at each others' throats for eternity if they don't do something different from past failures.

Im genuinely curious, in what point did Americans become so indoctrinated to be concerned about the 'Palestinian plea', and why do they feel it is the essential issue in the regional politics.
and in what ways do they feel they actually have a grasp of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

 

[Looncall]

The region may seem barbaric to others, but have no doubt that many of the people of the region feel the same animosity to what they perceive to be the decay of western societies, and you'll be surprised how right on the money they can be on many issues.

So what? the problem is that the national sports in these places seem to be murder and violations of human rights. The inhabitants of western societies are not knocking each other off by wholesale, after all. It is laughable that these people feel any moral superiority over anyone at all.

If the Middle Eastern states would just get their act together and arrange to govern themselves decently, without abusing their neighbours, I expect that the rest of the world would be relieved and glad to leave them to it.

 

[Caladan]

So what? the problem is that the national sports in these places seem to be murder and violations of human rights. The inhabitants of western societies are not knocking each other off by wholesale, after all. It is laughable that these people feel any moral superiority over anyone at all.

OK, lets try to make order out of this. the vast majority of the people in the region are obviously NOT directly involved in the violent strife, most of these people are deeply concerned about their own livelihood. they are living the life they have always lived in this region, and serve as subjects of the regime or government, and might be caught and communicate between different factions.
now, many mid easterners, hold in regard the past successful Islamic dynasties, these were the times were Islamic cultures were the 'superpower', and the westerners were the savages of a European dark ages, much of the knowledge and experience of these dynasties is alive today in Muslim society, and you will be surprised how much western society has gained from this knowledge and experience.

If the Middle Eastern states would just get their act together and arrange to govern themselves decently, without abusing their neighbours, I expect that the rest of the world would be relieved and glad to leave them to it.

There are some very strong mid eastern governments, who do efficient work in maintaining public order.

 

[Revoltingest]

Im genuinely curious, in what point did Americans become so indoctrinated to be concerned about the 'Palestinian plea', and why do they feel it is the essential issue in the regional politics.
and in what ways do they feel they actually have a grasp of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

"Indoctrinated" is a loaded word to use. The irony is that everyone always thinks they have the true "grasp" of any given matter, &
that only the other guy is indoctrinated. People directly involved will have lots of personal experience, but also a deeply emotional
perspective. Perhaps it takes someone unconnected with any of the involved religions or conflicts to truly understand what is going on.
Anyway, I don't claim to understand it all. But neither am I going to easily accept someone else's argument from authority.

 

[Caladan]

Perhaps it takes someone not connected with any of the involved religions or conflicts to truly understand what is going on.

I truly hope you do not believe that. the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations have been going on for some good years now with the top political analysts, the common citizens may follow the news, but they will certainly have no solutions to the complicated conflict or the negotiations.

Anyway, I don't claim to understand it all. But neither am I going to easily accept someone else's claim to authority.

This is a debate. I'm bringing my personal experience as a local citizen in this on going conflict, as the American public opinion is relevant to my nation's politics, I am eager to debate it. but I do wonder, WHO do you take as an authority on the subject?

 

[Revoltingest]

I truly hope you do not believe that. the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations have been going on for some good years now with the top political analysts, the common citizens may follow the news, but they will certainly have no solutions to the complicated conflict or the negotiations.

These top political analysts are just mere mortals with limitations & failings, the same as you & I.
They haven't done too well, so clearly, other perspectives & approaches are needed.

This is a debate.

I'm not debating, just relating a view.

I'm bringing my personal experience as a local citizen in this on going conflict, as the American public opinion is relevant to my nation's politics, I am eager to debate it. but I do wonder, WHO do you take as an authority on the subject?

I don't recognize any one person as the authority. Everyone has only their own opinions, which are colored by their experiences & emotions.
Everyone is capable of being right or wrong, & at times there isn't even a right or wrong. I consider & weigh the merits of all whom I hear.
Your experiences are certainly valuable things to relate. I find them illuminating.

 

[Caladan]

These top political analysts are just mere mortals with limitations & failings, the same as you & I.

They are certainly not the same as foreign nationals outside the middle east, these people have experience and background in the political field and with the middle east. it is their job and careers.

They haven't done too well, so clearly, other perspectives & approaches are needed.

If these people have hardships in bringing viable solutions, imagine the proportions American citizens need to treat the matter.

I don't recognize any one person as the authority. Everyone has only their own opinions, which are colored by their experiences & emotions.
Everyone is capable of being right or wrong, & at times there isn't even a right or wrong. I consider & weigh the merits of all whom I hear.

You are deeply wrong, many people in this region and outside this region have an authority as their base of knowledge on the matter, politicians, academics, military leaders, every citizen who is following the issue needs to digest information from other sources, they may claim their own opinions, but make no mistake about it, their opinions are shaped by 'higher' more authoritative sources.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are deeply wrong....

I get that a lot. But there's little point in stating it. People who are "deeply wrong" aren't going to become correct as a result of being called that.
I could be wrong, but I also believe that you could be equally wrong. Stridency & certainty of one's position do not win an argument.

....many people in this region and outside this region have an authority as their base of knowledge on the matter, politicians, academics, military leaders, every citizen who is following the issue needs to digest information from other sources, they may claim their own opinions, but make no mistake about it, their opinions are shaped by 'higher' more authoritative sources.

With all their knowledge, expertise & authority, the problems & carnage continue. Seeing this tells me that there's room for more opinion than just
yours or theirs. Are you trying to convince me that I should just defer to your opinions because you claim some superior authority? If so, you're not
making a strong case for it.

 

[I'ken Imagine]

Currently. Muslim suicide bombers killing other Muslims. Is there some other group that is doing this?

In any case, it wouldn't matter. That's not what the thread's about. The thread is about Muslim suicide bombers killing other Muslims. Why do you think this is happening?

Sorry for misconstruing the thread. Why do I think this is happening? I have a knee-jerk response that supposes less intent and more careless disregard for collateral damage. But since that IS a knee-jerk response maybe an example of what you consider to be the single most egregious example would help me to examine the issue more effectively. Oh, and also I have to wonder about the word "group" that is doing this. I mean it doesn't seem accurate to lump the entire Muslim world. I think of Timothy McVey and the collateral damage that resulted from his action. I have to wonder whether it would likewise be inaccurate to lump a large number of people with HIM? This is merely my particular way of attempting to find perspective.

 

[Caladan]

I get that a lot. But there's little point in stating it. People who are "deeply wrong" aren't going to become correct as a result of being called that.
I could be wrong, but I also believe that you could be equally wrong. Stridency & certainty of one's position do not win an argument.

We are talking about a conflict which has been stretching for over 60 years, with more history stretching far back into the days of the British mandate and even the Turkish rule over Palestine. take a moment to think about it, and consider how little each of us, even those of us who live here can consider our opinion to be highly relevant. the best we can do is keep up to date in order not to be caught with our pants down and to stay in touch with reality.

With all their knowledge, expertise & authority, the problems & carnage continue. Seeing this tells me that there's room for more opinion than just
yours or theirs. Are you trying to convince me that I should just defer to your opinions because you claim some superior authority? If so, you're not
making a strong case for it.

I am debating you, if you interpret it as succumbing to my authority, fine. however, claiming that your opinion, as an American citizen is as relevant as that of political analysts is unrealistic and needs to check itself in the face of hard earned knowledge and expertise of people who invested many hours and sometimes years of their life to study the region and the conflict. these are the people you need to study from in order to shape any kind of opinion in the first place. after all your own opinion is already shaped by the news feed who bring us the knowledge of the political analysts, the politicians etc. so whether you admit it or not, your opinion has been shaped by these people.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, Muslim opposition and strife with other Muslims is more relevant than with other Muslims in many cases, because every Muslim ethnic group, faction, or nation wants to promote its interest in the respective region.
in Iraq today Shia and Sunni factions are fighting each other more intensely since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, bombings in the capital with as up to hundreds of casualties have become common news. the Kurds are also at odds with the Sunnis in northern Iraq. modern middle eastern history is scarred with numerous conflicts between nations and factions, its hard to even begin listing it. there are millions of casualties and millions of refugees in Islamic lands in the Middle east and in Africa only in the last 30 years.
around my nation, in the north Lebanon has known several civil wars between different factions, Syria has been competing with nations such as Jordan on regional dominance with threats of war in the past, during the 70's the Jordanian government led the death of up to tens of thousands of Palestinians in the Black September conflict.
practically every nation in the region has warred with neighboring Arab or Muslim nations or had troublesome fighting within its own borders.
This is a long struggle for power and interests, that will go on through out all Islamic history. sometimes because of religious zeal and intense disagreement in dogma, in the case of certain militant groups, and other times because of power projection and the need to stay on top in a dog eat dog region.
right now, one of the main issues in the middle east, is various Sunni Arab nations concern with the rise of the Shia bloc led by Iran, the leader of Jordan King Abdullah II and the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak in recent years have propagated much concern in the Arab world over the rise of Shiite Iran, the gulf states are voicing the same concern and attitude, with some gulf states strategists going as far as promoting an Israeli strike on Iranian nuclear facilities, in 2009 Morocco cut ties with Iran over what the Moroccan leadership claimed was Iranian intervention in the religious fabric of the Moroccan kingdom. the Sunnis in the region are worried about the expansion of the Shiite bloc in their lands, and the influence of a regional power in the case of Iran over Shiites populations in the region. Iran has been linked to Shiite militias in Iraq, and has also been hinted in intervention with the Shiite militias in Yemen who have been warring with the official government, the Iranian influence over Shiite Lebanon and Hezballah the militant Shiite organization in Lebanon is well known, as well as its influence and support of (Sunni) Hamas in the Gaza strip.

Thank you Caladan for bringing some information and analysis to the situation. Can you connect the dots specifically between Shi'ite/Sunni conflict and suicide bombing? What I mean is, there is conflict between various ethnic and religious groups all over the world, but most do not use this specific tactic. Any idea why it comes into play here?

 

[Autodidact]

So what, if anything, can be done?

Should the rest of the world build a fence around the Middle East, wait for the dust to settle, then have a look to see if anyone is still there? Given the endemic barbarity of the region, I don't see any other practical course to take.

I think one thing we could do is make ourselves in-dependent of oil as an energy source. That would de-couple us from conflicts in this region, and dry up a major source of funding for both extremist governments and terrorist organizations.

 

[Autodidact]

Sorry for misconstruing the thread. Why do I think this is happening? I have a knee-jerk response that supposes less intent and more careless disregard for collateral damage. But since that IS a knee-jerk response maybe an example of what you consider to be the single most egregious example would help me to examine the issue more effectively. Oh, and also I have to wonder about the word "group" that is doing this. I mean it doesn't seem accurate to lump the entire Muslim world. I think of Timothy McVey and the collateral damage that resulted from his action. I have to wonder whether it would likewise be inaccurate to lump a large number of people with HIM? This is merely my particular way of attempting to find perspective.

Well there have been two awful ones recently, both in Pakistan. Last Friday, a teenage suicide bomber blew himself up IN A MOSQUE (!), killing around 65 people and injuring many more, in Badhber, NW Pakistan. In September, a suicide attack on a Shi'ite rally killed around 60 and injured many more.

Nearly 3,800 people have been killed since the summer of 2007 in Pakistan in a wave of more than 400 bombings and suicide attacks, mainly perpetrated by the Pakistani Taliban who have pledged allegiance to Al Qaeda and allied groups.

That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Caladan]

Thank you Caladan for bringing some information and analysis to the situation. Can you connect the dots specifically between Shi'ite/Sunni conflict and suicide bombing? What I mean is, there is conflict between various ethnic and religious groups all over the world, but most do not use this specific tactic. Any idea why it comes into play here?

While academics in the field of Islamic studies may say that suicide bombings is rooted in interpretation of Jihad in turn backed up by Qur'anic interpretation, as someone who has served in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and east Jerusalem, military intelligence would also show that suicide bombing has become a martyrdom industry, in which young men are brainwashed in order to promote the political power of terror organizations and to remind the Israeli government that they are still relevant in the political turn out of events despite the Israeli forceful grip on the Palestinian territories, in all cases these young men will be pressured into suicide bombings without having much choice in the matter, and would certainly not do it because they believe they are going for a pleasant afterlife.
in other nations, from Iraq to Pakistan, suicide bombing may hold a different brand of religious zeal and interpretation of Jihad, but in all cases it is to remind the enemy of this destructive tool to 'stay in the game', a tool which many governments do not have a final answer to.

 

[Caladan]

I think one thing we could do is make ourselves in-dependent of oil as an energy source. That would de-couple us from conflicts in this region, and dry up a major source of funding for both extremist governments and terrorist organizations.

While this is a romantic idea, its in the interest of all the major parties to keep oil as relevant as always.

 

[Revoltingest]

We are talking about a conflict which has been stretching for over 60 years, with more history stretching far back into the days of the British mandate and even the Turkish rule over Palestine. take a moment to think about it, and consider how little each of us, even those of us who live here can consider our opinion to be highly relevant. the best we can do is keep up to date in order not to be caught with our pants down and to stay in touch with reality.

No argument about that.

I am debating you....

I won't be much opposition then. All I have is just my broad suggestion of a better approach to the problem & my basis for it.
In fact, you haven't even directly challenged it. So it appears that neither of us is debating.

.....if you interpret it as succumbing to my authority, fine. however, claiming that your opinion, as an American citizen is as relevant as that of political analysts is unrealistic and needs to check itself in the face of hard earned knowledge and expertise of people who invested many hours and sometimes years of their life to study the region and the conflict. these are the people you need to study from in order to shape any kind of opinion in the first place. after all your own opinion is already shaped by the news feed who bring us the knowledge of the political analysts, the politicians etc. so whether you admit it or not, your opinion has been shaped by these people.

Everyone's opinions have been shaped by something...yours, mine, the experts, the parties involved. That seems irrelevant.
Btw, I never claimed my opinion was "as relevant as....". That's your inference. Moreover, you dwell an awful lot on argumentum ad hominem.
I get the impression that you want to be recognized as right simply because of who you are & who I'm not. That doesn't play well.

 

[Caladan]

I won't be much opposition then. All I have is just my broad suggestion of a better approach to the problem & my basis for it.
In fact, you haven't even directly challenged it. So it appears that neither of us is debating.

I have challenged you and your answer was "Perhaps it takes someone unconnected with any of the involved religions or conflicts to truly understand what is going on." after which I have explained why this approach is unconstructive and immature.

Everyone's opinions have been shaped by something...yours, mine, the experts, the parties involved. That seems irrelevant.
Btw, I never claimed my opinion was "as relevant as....". That's your inference. Moreover, you dwell an awful lot on argumentum ad hominem.
I get the impression that you want to be recognized as right simply because of who you are & who I'm not. That doesn't play well.

Again your words: "Perhaps it takes someone unconnected with any of the involved religions or conflicts to truly understand what is going on."
If you think that the way our opinions are shaped is irrelevant, that says a lot about how informative your opinion is, and also says a lot at how selective you are about your sources.
So instead of getting defensive about non existent ad hominems, try to address the issue.

 

[Looncall]

OK, lets try to make order out of this. the vast majority of the people in the region are obviously NOT directly involved in the violent strife, most of these people are deeply concerned about their own livelihood. they are living the life they have always lived in this region, and serve as subjects of the regime or government, and might be caught and communicate between different factions.
now, many mid easterners, hold in regard the past successful Islamic dynasties, these were the times were Islamic cultures were the 'superpower', and the westerners were the savages of a European dark ages, much of the knowledge and experience of these dynasties is alive today in Muslim society, and you will be surprised how much western society has gained from this knowledge and experience.

I wonder about this "ordinary people are not involved" meme, especially when I see how suicide bombers are regarded as heroes in Gaza and elsewhere. In any case, why can the extremists operate among all these supposedly-peaceful ordinary citizens?

As for the glorious past, islam abandoned all that long ago and now contributes almost nothing to humanity. You seem to imply that these peoples have an inflated sense of their own worth, simply because their ancestors did well.

There are some very strong mid eastern governments, who do efficient work in maintaining public order.

Sure, but there are also important ones that do not, and the stable ones are not shining examples where human rights are concerned.