Whose 'logic' is it anyway?

[ChristineES]

Kirk showed us the importance of getting it on with alien babes.
I learned that wearing a red shirt is a death sentence.

Yeah, that, too. If Star Trek was real, I would refuse to wear a red shirt on Kirk's ship (or dress). Kirk would not come on to me, so I am safe there. (thanks. Your sarcasm and wit made me smile)

 

[PolyHedral]

I think Star Trek, of all things, really talked about the need for both logic and gut feelings. Spock used logic to explain things, and Dr. McCoy had mostly gut reactions. Their interactions were kind of a message that we need both. We need both logic and emotions. God, to me at least, is a spiritual thing- speaking to my emotional side. When I studied Chemistry in college, I used my logical side and did very well at it.

(I think it strange, as Star Trek is hardly a religious show).

You only need emotions if you can't process the logic fast enough.

 

[cablescavenger]

The atheist talk of logic in trying to explain away God ,Religion or Spirituality is a moot point.

Whose logic are we talking about here - God's or human's?

What may seem logical to us is only so because we only understand our own logic.

Think of a tribe comprised of children - their leaders would make the rules based on their own logic - to them it would all be commonsense and correct yet an adult could easily prove them wrong.

How about animal logic? - would a human be able to tell the leader of the Wolf Pack the correct way to do things, and how could a human possibly know anyway?

The same is true of God.

Statements such as 'the concept of God defies logic therefore it is just a delusion' are erroneous as they are based on the logical fallacy of human logic being correct.

God exists otherwise how else can you explain anything?

Question your assumptions :foot:

 

[Sunstone]

You only need emotions if you can't process the logic fast enough.

That seems to be an error that began with the ancient Greeks.

 

[PolyHedral]

Cognitive science has moved on in 2000 years.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How could a human really know a wolf's innermost thoughts though?

The idea of some brain scanning equipment doesn't quite do the trick for me.

Extend this idea a bit farther and you'll soon be asking about p-zombies.

 

[Nois Forme]

...it is just a delusion' are erroneous as they are based on the logical fallacy of human logic being correct.

One might wonder what sort of logic and reasoning your argument depends on for its truth? It occurs to me that the only logic and reasoning you can possibly base your own argument on, are of the same variety that you claim to be quite unreliable.

So; Using 'human' reason and logic to demonstrate a truth about a deity, you must claim that one cannot use said reason and logic to make a claim about a deity. Hmmm.

 

[connermt]

Not at all .. try to understand it as we might, we still don't understand what causes awareness & volition .. you only assume that the brain is solely responsible.

Logic & reason doesn't point towards there "probably not being a god", it points in the opposite direction .. that there is!

We experience consciousness, and are able to make reasoned choices .. what's your explanation?
You say "solely the brain" is responsible..
Let's say that you're right .. then how did our brains become able to do this?
You say "they evolved" .. what did they evolve from?

..and there you have it .. I postulate that "God" arranged it, whereas you will say "I don't know", or "they can evolve from nought"

Which is saying that our brains "just happen to be for no reason" .. that's not an explanation! Particularly not an epistemically justified one.
So .. whether one is a 'dualist' or not makes no difference, really..

I, at least, don't "assume" the brain is "solely" responsible. I know it's at least, partly responsible. I see no evidence, short of hopes and dreams, that shows any god or supernatural being is responsible for anything.

Simply not knowing how/why shouldn't allow one to slot in the "god card" and say that's that. Doing so is lazy and dishonest.

Who says our brains happened for no reason? I haven't seen anyone make that claim. You're making assumptions to prove your own point. Self fulfilling prophecies as it were. Just like using the bible to prove itself correct.
Silliness.

One can pin all their hopes and dreams on a mystical cloud riding deity that's not responsible for anything, yet holds the whole of existence in its hands. I prefer to strive to know facts and data - not hopes and dreams.

I leave those to those who have a limited scope on reality.

 

[Blackdog22]

In any case, thanks for the opportunity to present my

Dog Whisperer Fallacy

I use this as a way to argue against the oft-repeated phrase: God's reason is not our reason' or 'we can't know the mind of God', or similar, when irrationality is offered as the
way in which God supposedly operates.

If you needed to train a dog, you would NOT simply sit it in front of a TV and put in a DVD of the Dog Whisperer; you would communicate with the dog in the way IT understands.

On the show 'the Dog Whisperer', the host shows people how to relate to their dogs to curb behavior problems. With every troubled dog, the host communicates with them in every way that relates to the social interaction of dogs. He establishes the social hierarchy of the pack, with himself at the top as alpha. He corrects them firmly, but always in gestures that a dog would use; he forces the dog into a physically submissive position, on its back with its belly up and exposed; he will grasp them by the neck [not in a harmful way] with is fingers crooked so that the dog feels as it its got teeth on its neck.

He never yells, he never hits; he never holds long conversations explaining his desires with the dog. In every respect, he is speaking dog to the dog, because that is the only way it will learn. And his methods are 100% effective.

If you were God, you could not expect to communicate to Man in a way only you as God understand, and expect anything to be learned by Man. The ONLY way you could communicate to Man would HAVE to be in a rational way as Man understands it. If God's way is not rational, on the level of Man's rationality [because who gave Man rationality in the first place as a
method of thought?], then God is merely an irrational, random and capricious danger to Man.

Just wanted to bump this so it doesn't get overlooked by the OP. It is almost exactly what my response was going to be.

 

[1137]

The atheist talk of logic in trying to explain away God ,Religion or Spirituality is a moot point.

Whose logic are we talking about here - God's or human's?

What may seem logical to us is only so because we only understand our own logic.

Think of a tribe comprised of children - their leaders would make the rules based on their own logic - to them it would all be commonsense and correct yet an adult could easily prove them wrong.

How about animal logic? - would a human be able to tell the leader of the Wolf Pack the correct way to do things, and how could a human possibly know anyway?

The same is true of God.

Statements such as 'the concept of God defies logic therefore it is just a delusion' are erroneous as they are based on the logical fallacy of human logic being correct.

God exists otherwise how else can you explain anything?

Actually logic is above human perceptions. Whether one accepts something as logical or not does not change the fact if it is or not. Something is or is not logical, free from human opinion. Logic applies equally everywhere, even where humans do not exist. You cannot make a square-circle because it is logically incoherent. If you go to a distant planet in a distant galaxies and try to make a square-circle, it is still logically incoherent.

The Laws of Logic actually do not bother many ideas of gods. In many cases they help. Have you heard this: Could god make a stone so big even he cannot lift it? This would pose a problem for a theist if the Laws of Logic were not absolute or did not exist. The answer leads to a much less impressive god without logic, as the general conclusion is god cannot do such a thing. However, the whole idea of god being all powerful but not being able to do something is a paradox, is logically incoherent, and is no problem.

Here is the problem with gods such as the Christian god: The nature of such a god does not fit logic, mainly because of the problem of evil. Believing in a god of such nature is against the absolute, universal laws of logic. Therefore that exact god of that nature does not exist. Either it is fictional or lying to us about who it is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Here is the problem with gods such as the Christian god: The nature of such a god does not fit logic, mainly because of the problem of evil. Believing in a god of such nature is against the absolute, universal laws of logic. Therefore that exact god of that nature does not exist..

Depends which creed you're considering .. there are around 70 different sects of Christianity..
Are you familiar with them all?

Re problem of evil:-

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Almighty God's idea of evil is completely different to that of the atheist, who is only concerned with the "here & now" .. forever is an exceedingly long time

 

[1137]

Depends which creed you're considering .. there are around 70 different sects of Christianity..
Are you familiar with them all?

Re problem of evil:-

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Almighty God's idea of evil is completely different to that of the atheist, who is only concerned with the "here & now" .. forever is an exceedingly long time

Actually the simple solution to the PoE is god is not all loving. To believe god is is highly illogical. Which sect of Christianity we are talking about makes no difference. If it is a Christian sect then the basics are the same, including the nature of god.

 

[9Westy9]

Actually the simple solution to the PoE is god is not all loving. To believe god is is highly illogical. Which sect of Christianity we are talking about makes no difference. If it is a Christian sect then the basics are the same, including the nature of god.

There are a few work arounds. None of them are amazing though

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Depends which creed you're considering .. there are around 70 different sects of Christianity..
Are you familiar with them all?

Re problem of evil:-

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Almighty God's idea of evil is completely different to that of the atheist, who is only concerned with the "here & now" .. forever is an exceedingly long time

So evil does not exist? Then sin does not exist and there is no need for the Atonement. This is still a problem for most forms of Christianity.

 

[Daviso452]

Depends which creed you're considering .. there are around 70 different sects of Christianity..
Are you familiar with them all?

Brotha, you ain't got no clue how many are truly out there...

Almighty God's idea of evil is completely different to that of the atheist, who is only concerned with the "here & now" .. forever is an exceedingly long time

We are not concerned for the here and now. We are all concerned about the future. We just don't want to waist our future with false hopes.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Actually the simple solution to the PoE is god is not all loving.

Which would be totally incorrect!

To believe god is is highly illogical. Which sect of Christianity we are talking about makes no difference. If it is a Christian sect then the basics are the same, including the nature of god.

That's the same thing as saying that billions of Christians are "highly illogical" .. another over simplification of the issues involved.

You might be arrogant enough to to dimiss Christians in this way, but I'm not .. I think overall, that they have a lot of good qualities and are sincere .. and God knows best
..as I say, who is the judge of what is evil?

Almighty God is the best of ALL Judges!

 

[9Westy9]

Which would be totally incorrect!

Bold claim

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Which would be totally incorrect!

That's the same thing as saying that billions of Christians are "highly illogical" .. another over simplification of the issues involved.

You might be arrogant enough to to dismiss Christians in this way, but I'm not .. I think overall, that they have a lot of good qualities and are sincere .. and God knows best
..as I say, who is the judge of what is evil?

Almighty God is the best of ALL Judges!

Propaganda at best.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Which would be totally incorrect!



That's the same thing as saying that billions of Christians are "highly illogical" .. another over simplification of the issues involved.

You might be arrogant enough to to dimiss Christians in this way, but I'm not .. I think overall, that they have a lot of good qualities and are sincere .. and God knows best
..as I say, who is the judge of what is evil?

Almighty God is the best of ALL Judges!

The fact that they are sincere and mean well does not negate the possibility they are wrong on that issue, though.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which would be totally incorrect!



That's the same thing as saying that billions of Christians are "highly illogical" .. another over simplification of the issues involved.

You might be arrogant enough to to dimiss Christians in this way, but I'm not .. I think overall, that they have a lot of good qualities and are sincere .. and God knows best
..as I say, who is the judge of what is evil?

Almighty God is the best of ALL Judges!

But there's still a logical contradiction, as I pointed out in the post you passed over: when we're looking at things through the lens of a faith that says that sin and evil have so fundamentally messed up with the universe that God himself (or his son) has to step in and fix it, saying "everything's fine and there is no evil" simply isn't an option.