Who Stole My Freedom?!

[TashaN]

The title of this thread was inspired from a very famous book called "Who Moved My Cheese?" by Spencer Johnson. But the content of this thread of course is irrelevant or might be relevant somehow, who knows?!

Anyway, what i would like to talk about in here is the so called freedom most of westerners talk about all the time. I don't deny that some of these efforts by some organizations are really great and are attempting to improve the conditions of some people. Nevertheless, when it comes to public, it gets really ridiculous and laughable. I just will have a look at some comments and say, what an idiot! i really can't handle these stuff because those people are liars. In fact, they are just trying to prove the inferiority of others and their lack for freedom.

I really tried so many times and for long time to understand and reason with those people, but i reached to the conclusion that they are so scared. Yes, they are scared because they have to find someone without freedom or they won't feel theirs.

We would never have known justice and feel it for real, if there was no prejudice and there is so many examples and this is just one of them. The same thing happen when it comes to freedom; people show their fake pity for others, but the truth is, they should feel pity for themselves, because they are really delusional and their delusional is based on their obsession with freedom, which is the only thing which keep them proud of their identity. In fact, this is their culture, and they just have to act based on it. True, it's a culture for many people, and it's a must, to feel that fake feelings that others need their help because they are hopeless and all that.

Please wake up, WAKE UP, the world is not waiting for you to solve their problems, and if you can't help it but to offer your generous help, please please clean your own mess first, because a close and fast look at your country will show all kinds of hypocrisy.

Any typical conversation will go like this ...

Women in Saudi Arabia should be allowed more basic freedoms, according to a UN anti-discrimination committee.​

Saudian Girl: you guys get a life. I am a saudi girl.i live in riyadh. I go to school. I am happy. I go out everyday. I shop. I have an i pod. I have a laptop. I travel out of the country every year. I am doing better than and enjoying life more than my western female friends.

Somkid: this is not true of the entire population of Muslims.

neves: The Muslim women speak for themselves and yet you say the evidence points in another direction… I find this dreadfully odd but not surprising…

MidnightBlue: People in abusive relationships often make excuses for their abusers.

Abu Khalid: But all the women i have seen in my life either in real world or the internet said they are happy with what they already have and they are optimistic with the current changes in their countries.

yossarian22: And here is the problem with the region.
If given democracy, they would probably vote their rights away.

Note that the conversation above has not occured as how i put it in here, but i used the same excact comment as a sample for what i used to hear from people most of the time. The real conversation is in here: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...udis-say-no-discrimination-against-women.html

These kind of comments excatly summed up all the things i have heard since i joined RF about our women.

Then suddnly, a muslim intelligent woman, covered up from head to toes, living in America pass by and say that she is just practicing her right to wear the way she love, and no body forced her to do so.

Annoying freedom patriot will come and say to her, well, umm, ahhh, we are not talking about you, but we are talking about the other women who looks like you!!!!!!!!!! :cover:

For God's sake, you think you represent them in here and when they speak up for themselves you claim they are sort of psycho or something!

My younger sister wear in black as what the saudi girls wear in Saudi Arabia. She is so smart and intelligent, she study with me at the same faculty, and she socre every year in all her courses way better than me, and she is an indepedent girl. And no matter how much i try to convince her to register in RF, she says that she will have a look, and when she read your prejudice and stupid generlaizations about her and the women in saudi arabia no matter what, she just tell me how ridiculous many people in here think when it comes to the muslim women, and that she is not interested in wasting her time saying that she is a real muslim woman who wears hijab and lives in saudi arabia and that she feel that no body has taken her freedom away from her. She was right, after all, some people would just tell her that either she doesn't represent the entire muslim girls living in saudi arabia or maybe they would accuse her of loving her so called abusive family, or the laws in her country, which would have hurt her feelings alot, and she wouldn't handle such a thing. So, i don't blame her.

That's why, please, ladies and gentlemen, fighters of the so called freedom ...

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!​

Wait a second, let me make it my signature!​

OK, now it looks great down there. Awesome!​

Peace!​

 

[Smoke]

As you say, freedom is important in Western culture. For the past 500 years, we've been fighting for freedom; fighting mostly against the people who hold the power in our own countries. We're still fighting; our whole history is a fight for freedom, and we always have people like George Bush who want to take away the freedoms we've won.

So of course we're horrified at the way you treat your women -- and they are your women; they don't belong to themselves. We hate the way you treat your women like slaves. You might not think they're treated like slaves, but to us, that's what it is. In our culture, nobody has ever been treated that way who wasn't a slave.

So you hate that we say what we think about it. So what?

In your religion, in your culture, in your country, people aren't allowed to speak their mind, but in our culture, and on these forums, people are allowed to speak their mind. Here, we don't have any religious police who come knocking on the door if somebody dares to question repressive religious tyrants. Here, you don't get to tell people what to think. So people will continue to speak out about the way you treat women, the way you treat homosexuals, the way you treat non-Muslims. You might as well get used to it.

I don't believe the oppressed people in your culture are as happy as you say, either. If they are, why do you need such harsh, repressive laws? Why do you need religious police? Why do all the happy people in your culture need the rod and the sword to make sure they do what makes them oh, so happy?

Even if we wanted to ignore the barbarism, we can't. The world is too small. Muslims go to France and riot in the streets and demand Sharia law. Muslims go to Scandinavia and attack Scandinavian women in the streets for wearing "immodest" clothing. Nineteen Muslims, fifteen of them from your country, committed the greatest mass murder ever committed in the United States. All over Asia, Muslims strap on bombs to fight against freedom, peace, and justice. Everyplace in Africa that Muslims have the power to oppress non-Muslims, they do. The form of Islam that has the force of law in your country exports violence and intolerance all over the world. And you tell us to mind our own business? Your violence and intolerance affects the whole world. It is our business.

 

[Aasimar]

That's why, please, ladies and gentlemen, fighters of the so called freedom ...MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!

It's a bit late for that at this point wouldn't you say?

 

[Yerda]

I would thought a Muslim would have more regard for the charitable actions of fighting discrimination.

Are you denying that pervasive discrimination against women occurs in Saudia Arabia?

 

[Autodidact]

The issue is not whether an individual woman is happy wearing he burka or not, but whether she has the right not to wear it if she so desires. That's what freedom means--the ability to choose for yourself. I'm not trying to deny her the right to wear a burka if she likes it; I'm advocating for the right for her to wear a burka, and the woman next to her to wear a pair of jeans and a sweater, if that's what she likes.

For example, in Saudi Arabia, is everyone free to choose their own religious belief? Is a Saudi Arabian citizen free to practice Shi'a Islam, Christianity, Judaism or no religion? What happens to a Saudi person, born Muslim, who decides that Islam is not correct, and he does not believe in Allah? Is he free to leave Islam?

 

[Smoke]

What happens to a Saudi person, born Muslim, who decides that Islam is not correct, and he does not believe in Allah? Is he free to leave Islam?

Due to Western pressure, state-sponsored executions of apostates aren't as common as they used to be. However, all the traditional schools of Islam teach that a Muslim may kill an apostate without penalty.

 

[England my lionheart]

I would like to draw your attention the link below and would like for you to view it and get back to me once you have seen it.
You could also ask Wajeha Al-Huwaider as she was arrested for carrying a placard urging King Abdullah to give women more rights.
Wake up and smell the Roses old chap and see for yourself.
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Saudi presenter shows beaten face

 

[blackout]

The first and ultimate freedom to always go
is people's ability to think for themselves.

This is ultimately why we live on a slave planet.

The more a poplulation lets others do their thinking for them...
the more enslaved that population is.
I don't care what they have or how affluent they are or whatever.

Freedom is an illusion unless it comes from deep within.
(though it certainly is nice not to be locked away by the elite run mainstream
for expressing/being/revealing/developing your true self)

 

[Jistyr]

My younger sister wear in black as what the saudi girls wear in Saudi Arabia. She is so smart and intelligent, she study with me at the same faculty, and she socre every year in all her courses way better than me, and she is an indepedent girl. And no matter how much i try to convince her to register in RF, she says that she will have a look, and when she read your prejudice and stupid generlaizations about her and the women in saudi arabia no matter what, she just tell me how ridiculous many people in here think when it comes to the muslim women, and that she is not interested in wasting her time saying that she is a real muslim woman who wears hijab and lives in saudi arabia and that she feel that no body has taken her freedom away from her.

If your sister understands that we are misinformed and incorrect about the treatment and well-being of Middle Eastern women, instead of pouting about it and refusing to go on the forums, how about she comes on and politely discusses with us how we may be incorrect, and what a more appropriate view would be. If she sees a problem in our ideology, maybe it would be best for her to try and fix it, as opposed to just turning a blind eye.

You call your sister intelligent, but it seems to me that she is lacking simple logic.

 

[yossarian22]

In fact, they are just trying to prove the inferiority of others and their lack for freedom.

Ah yes,
I am the bigot here.
Thanks for pointing our my hypocrisy

I really tried so many times and for long time to understand and reason with those people, but i reached to the conclusion that they are so scared. Yes, they are scared because they have to find someone without freedom or they won't feel theirs.

Its now obvious you haven't.
Your view is fixed and obviously is not mutable. I can predict this will be like arguing with a brick wall.

Women in Saudi Arabia should be allowed more basic freedoms, according to a UN anti-discrimination committee.​

So you disagree with the UN.
So do most people, the UN is full of ****.

Saudian Girl: you guys get a life. I am a saudi girl.i live in riyadh. I go to school. I am happy. I go out everyday. I shop. I have an i pod. I have a laptop. I travel out of the country every year. I am doing better than and enjoying life more than my western female friends.

Congrats!
You have demonstrated the stupidity of anecdotes.
Shall I show you a quote of a Jewish person who just loved the period of time between 1930 and 1960?

neves: a Muslim woman speak for themselves and yet you say the evidence points in another direction… I find this dreadfully odd but not surprising…

I took the liberty of fixing that up.

Abu Khalid: But all the women i have seen in my life either in real world or the internet said they are happy with what they already have and they are optimistic with the current changes in their countries.

Once again, I can show you a collection of quotes from people who though the Great Purge was fine and dandy, that the Great Leap Forward was the best thing since sliced bread, that the gassing of the Kurds wasn't really that bad.
Picking and choosing, picking and choosing.
This is why I dismiss your points off hand.
Your points are not convincing to anybody, except for maybe you. I am willing to accept being in the wrong if you actually have something more concrete than 'Look what she thinks about it!'
Until then, you are just making noise.

 

[Sahar]

If your sister understands that we are misinformed and incorrect about the treatment and well-being of Middle Eastern women, instead of pouting about it and refusing to go on the forums, how about she comes on and politely discusses with us how we may be incorrect, and what a more appropriate view would be. If she sees a problem in our ideology, maybe it would be best for her to try and fix it, as opposed to just turning a blind eye.

It's useless, believe me. If I wanted to give her some advice, it would be not to waste her time here.
She can do much better things in her real life to prove that Muslim women are not oppressed instead of some meaningless talk.

 

[Somkid]

I do believe I was fair in my opinion and did not say anything was true of all Muslims, I know quite a few Muslims in the USA and they are horrified by the actions of some in the Middle East. I try not to use the words "always", "all" or "never" when I speak or write as they tend to be incorrect and unfair in ones assessment.

 

[McBell]

I wonder...
Would the Stockholm Syndrome possibly be applicable here?

I have seen abused women who claim that they are not being abused.
Even after their husband/boyfriend/girlfriend was convicted of physical abuse and they have to visit said ?significant? other in jail.

I am not suggesting that the OP's sister is in this situation, I do not know her or her situation to make any such judgment, but it seems that, as pointed out in post #10, there are always those who are the (for lack of a better term) victims, yet refuse to see it.

 

[Jistyr]

instead of some meaningless talk.

Oh yes, because we all know the uselessness of communication and discussion.

You vastly oversimplify the subject.

 

[Sahar]

Oh yes, because we all know the uselessness of communication and discussion.

Someone: Women are abused and treated as slaves in the Middle-East and in the Muslim countries.
Muslim woman: I live in the Middle East, I am not abused, I am not oppressed and live very normal life.
Someone: Hmmm....would the Stockholm Syndrome possibly be applicable here? Or shall I show you a quote of a Jewish person who just loved the period of time between 1930 and 1960?

What a communication and what a discussion!!
What should our Muslim lady say in this case?

The Muslim woman: aaa...I....???
Someone: You have two choices; If you said you're abused, we will believe you. But if you said you're not abused, then you should have some sort of mental psychological disorder.....

Eh, I think Abu Khalid quoted something similar to the above "discussion" and "communication".

You vastly oversimplify the subject.

Right!!!

 

[Yerda]

She can do much better things in her real life to prove that Muslim women are not oppressed instead of some meaningless talk.

I thought the discussion was about discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia. I missed the track somewhere....

 

[Jistyr]

Someone: Women are abused and treated as slaves in the Middle-East and in the Muslim countries.
Muslim woman: I live in the Middle East, I am not abused, I am not oppressed and live very normal life.
Someone: Hmmm....would the Stockholm Syndrome possibly be applicable here? Or shall I show you a quote of a Jewish person who just loved the period of time between 1930 and 1960?

What a communication and what a discussion!!
What should our Muslim lady say in this case?

The Muslim woman: aaa...I....???
Someone: You have two choices; If you said you're abused, we will believe you. But if you said you're not abused, then you should have some sort of mental psychological disorder.....

This would be perhaps the best example of the absurd oversimplification that I was mentioning.

I thank you for supplying it.

And secondly, instead of just mocking the statements of other members as if it has already been determined that they are incorrect, how about you engage in honest debate to prove your point.

Please and thank you.

 

[McBell]

Someone: Women are abused and treated as slaves in the Middle-East and in the Muslim countries.
Muslim woman: I live in the Middle East, I am not abused, I am not oppressed and live very normal life.
Someone: Hmmm....would the Stockholm Syndrome possibly be applicable here? Or shall I show you a quote of a Jewish person who just loved the period of time between 1930 and 1960?

What a communication and what a discussion!!
What should our Muslim lady say in this case?

The Muslim woman: aaa...I....???
Someone: You have two choices; If you said you're abused, we will believe you. But if you said you're not abused, then you should have some sort of mental psychological disorder.....

Eh, I think Abu Khalid quoted something similar to the above "discussion" and "communication".

Right!!!

I have to agree.
Discussion with you is meaningless as long as you are going to go out of your way to be offended, purposely misunderstand what is being said, etc.

Please show where I stated that all muslim women are being abused?
You cannot because I have not.
Yet here you are doing the exact same thing you whine about others doing, lumping everyone into the same group.

So you were/are not being abused. Good for you.
Now what of those who are?
or are you going to say that there are NO women in muslim areas being abused?

You are as guilty of that which you complain.

 

[Sahar]

Jistyr and Mestemia, I won't make a long reply and say I didn't mock anyone or I wasn't talking about you specifically Mestemia.... I won't turn the topic into this.

Discussion with you is meaningless as long as you are going to go out of your way to be offended, purposely misunderstand what is being said, etc.

No problem.

I apologize to Abu Khalid for turning the thread into this direction.

 

[Autodidact]

It's useless, believe me. If I wanted to give her some advice, it would be not to waste her time here.
She can do much better things in her real life to prove that Muslim women are not oppressed instead of some meaningless talk.

Yeah, like put on a pair of shorts and a t-shirt that reads, "Proud Happy Atheist" and walk out her front door by herself. What do you think would happen?