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Who or what, is the final authority on truth?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
According to Adi Sankaracharya (8th Century religious leader and philosopher of Hinduism, fondly called Sankara), there are two realities in the universe. Absolute (Paramarthika, the final truth beyond which there is none) and Pragmatic (Vyavahrika, what we experience through our brain in day-to-day life). Both are true in their own way. A lion attacking me is pragmatic truth. Enter Quantum Mechanics. There is no lion and no me. What exists is an energy field which vibrates, does not even leave its position. Nothing moves. That is 'Maya' (appearance). These vibrations in the energy field create the illusion of the existence of the universe as we experience it. Now, some people will understand Absolute truth, some will get stuck at the Pragmatic truth only and will not be able to tear away the veil of illusion, ignorance.
(Sankara postulated a third truth also, but I am leaving that out to make things simple for you)
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
According to Adi Sankaracharya (8th Century religious leader and philosopher of Hinduism, fondly called Sankara), there are two realities in the universe. Absolute (Paramarthika, the final truth beyond which there is none) and Pragmatic (Vyavahrika, what we experience through our brain in day-to-day life). Both are true in their own way. A lion attacking me is pragmatic truth. Enter Quantum Mechanics. There is no lion and no me. What exists is an energy field which vibrates, does not even leave its position. Nothing moves. That is 'Maya' (appearance). These vibrations in the energy field create the illusion of the existence of the universe as we experience it. Now, some people will understand Absolute truth, some will get stuck at the Pragmatic truth only and will not be able to tear away the veil of illusion, ignorance.
(Sankara postulated a third truth also, but I am leaving that out to make things simple for you)

So you don't believe the Law of non-contradiction - 2nd law of logic: contradictory statements cannot be both true in the same way at the same time, "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
They are both true at their respective levels. That is why two realities. Some have their room at ground level, some on the first floor. Choices.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
So you don't believe in the Law of noncontradion.
What we believe as contradiction could just be a phase of things - for example 'creatio-ex-nihilo'. Where did what makes up the universe arise? Is it eternal or it rose out of 'absolute nothing'? The problem was mentioned in a 3,000 year old hymn of RigVeda known as the Hindu Creation hymn (Nasadiya Sukta):

'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

Our knowledge at the moment does not extend that far. So, we are at a certain point of the journey, we have a long way to go before we understand it all.

images
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
What we believe as contradiction could just be a phase of things - for example 'creatio-ex-nihilo'. Where did what makes up the universe arise? Is it eternal or it rose out of 'absolute nothing'? The problem was mentioned in a 3,000 year old hymn of RigVeda known as the Hindu Creation hymn (Nasadiya Sukta):

'Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

Our knowledge at the moment does not extend that far. So, we are at a certain point of the journey, we have a long way to go before we understand it all.

images

I'm not able to find the answer to my question in your reply. Let my try again.

You don't believe in the Law of Noncontradiction?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In the modern world where existence and non-existence are not different (Virtual particles), and past and future are not different (Einstein-Rosen bridges), what contradictions are we talking about?
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
In the modern world where existence and non-existence are not different (Virtual particles), and past and future are not different (Einstein-Rosen bridges), what contradictions are we talking about?

If I'm interpreting the answer to my question by you asking a question correctly, you are stating that there are no contradictions. That you both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way. That the past and the future (and I must assume the present) are identical "not different"

If existence and non-existence exist at the same time in the same way then you reject the objective, universal, invariant, abstract, binding, laws that govern thought, mathematics, morals, physics, the uniformity of nature and science.

However, you assert that science is your final authority on truth. You have no foundation for you to have science, or anything or anyone to be a final authority on truth according to your worldview. For both science and truth do and do not exist at the same time in the same way. And since you cannot know if you do or do not exist you cannot know anything for certain

Even though you deny the existence of contradictions, you have openly committed a self-contradictory argument.

You live in an illusion, according to your faith system. You assert science is true and enter a debate to justify science as the final authority on truth, and yet you believe that science both does and does not exist. And truth both does and does not exist.

You read my response and offered your reply. You know that to be true. And yet you don't know that to be true at the same time. You are both reading and thinking about my post and not reading and thinking at the same time.

You are engaging in total self-refuting and self-contradictory existence.

This is not an illusion it's delusional. You are not because you cannot live your life according to your worldview. You must stand on the truth of the Christian worldview that alone accounts for the absolute, universal, invariant, abstract, unchanging, objective, binding laws that govern reality.

You assert: "The frontiers of new knowledge can only be breached by science now."
You also assert: "past and future are not different".

There can be no "new" knowledge if there is no difference between the past and future. No progress. No forward motion. No advancement in anything.

But observation of reality refutes your self-contradictory arguments.

One question: When you squeeze your tube of toothpaste to brush your teeth today, will there be less in that tube tomorrow when you squeeze it again to brush than there was the day before?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And since you cannot know if you do or do not exist you cannot know anything for certain.
Rick, I exist, as well a not exist. Pragmatically, an Aupmanyav exists and is trying to answer your questions, but going farther into it, these are only perturbations in the field of energy. We have come to know a lot but the final answer of existence vs. non-existence eludes us.
You live in an illusion, according to your faith system. You assert science is true and enter a debate to justify science as the final authority on truth, and yet you believe that science both does and does not exist. And truth both does and does not exist.
Yeah, according to one stream of thought in Hinduism that I follow (Advaita, non-duality), we ourselves are illusions like the illusory world/universe that we seem to live in, a sort of matrix. And knowledge and science are the only way out of it. This is known as 'Jnana-Yoga', endeavoring to know more and more of the working of the universe. One of our oldest books (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad) said, 'Prajnanam Brahma' (Knowledge is Brahman).
And yet you don't know that to be true at the same time.
As I said we are at a certain point in the journey. We know more than what our predecessors knew, but there is a lot more to know. Knowledge will come with time, with effort and in bits and pieces. We found the Higg's Boson a few years ago. We were able to record the Gravity waves only recently. In the time to come, we will make more such discoveries which will take the whole picture towards completion.
This is not an illusion it's delusional. You are not because you cannot live your life according to your worldview. You must stand on the truth of the Christian worldview that alone accounts for the absolute, universal, invariant, abstract, unchanging, objective, binding laws that govern reality.
Haha, Christian and Islamic world-views. One propounded by an unlettered carpenter and the other by an unlettered camel driver, and hell for those who do not ditto the line. They are not for us. We in East are much more analytical that that. I do not face any problem in my life. I live happily in the 'Vyavaharika' (Pragmatic world) as per its requirements. As for the Paramarthika (Absolute truth), I follow the progress of science in all its branches.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Rick, I exist, as well a not exist. Pragmatically, an Aupmanyav exists and is trying to answer your questions, but going farther into it, these are only perturbations in the field of energy. We have come to know a lot but the final answer of existence vs. non-existence eludes us.Yeah, according to one stream of thought in Hinduism that I follow (Advaita, non-duality), we ourselves are illusions like the illusory world/universe that we seem to live in, a sort of matrix. And knowledge and science are the only way out of it. This is known as 'Jnana-Yoga', endeavoring to know more and more of the working of the universe. One of our oldest books (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad) said, 'Prajnanam Brahma' (Knowledge is Brahman).As I said we are at a certain point in the journey. We know more than what our predecessors knew, but there is a lot more to know. Knowledge will come with time, with effort and in bits and pieces. We found the Higg's Boson a few years ago. We were able to record the Gravity waves only recently. In the time to come, we will make more such discoveries which will take the whole picture towards completion.Haha, Christian and Islamic world-views. One propounded by an unlettered carpenter and the other by an unlettered camel driver, and hell for those who do not ditto the line. They are not for us. We in East are much more analytical that that. I do not face any problem in my life. I live happily in the 'Vyavaharika' (Pragmatic world) as per its requirements. As for the Paramarthika (Absolute truth), I follow the progress of science in all its branches.

The assertion that you "do not face any problem in my life" is because in your worldview problems are just an illusion, the don't exist. For that matter you say that you don't even know whether you exist.

As for we Christians in the West, we proceed from critical thinking skills gleaning from our ultimate authority the objective, universal, abstract, authoritative, invariant, binding, eternal, entities such as the laws of logic to proceed in our investigative fields of study. Without the foundation of these necessary laws there is no coherence in reality to which we can make sense of this world and live a rational life.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The assertion that you "do not face any problem in my life" is because in your worldview problems are just an illusion, the don't exist. For that matter you say that you don't even know whether you exist.
I think I have talked about two levels of reality - Absolute and Pragmatic. I and my problems (there are not many, and they are under control) exist in the Pragmatic mode. Do not mix up the two levels of reality. In the Absolute mode there is nothing other than Brahman. We too do all that which you are talking about in the pragmatic mode. But you do not know about the Absolute mode. Let us be happy where we are. And if you think that Christians are wiser than Hindus, I would not deny you that pleasure. I am not that puffed about egos.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
the truth itself is the meanings that matter most to the heart of one's cares.

I would say those meanings are the authority.

my God isn't a living deity, it is the principles motivations and intentions of meanings that mean well.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
I think I have talked about two levels of reality - Absolute and Pragmatic. I and my problems (there are not many, and they are under control) exist in the Pragmatic mode. Do not mix up the two levels of reality. In the Absolute mode there is nothing other than Brahman. We too do all that which you are talking about in the pragmatic mode. But you do not know about the Absolute mode. Let us be happy where we are. And if you think that Christians are wiser than Hindus, I would not deny you that pleasure. I am not that puffed about egos.

A major problem with your position is that you claim that "science" is your final authority. A final authority is that source of truth to which there is no more ultimate appeal.

You offered as a definition of science from Wikipedia as: "To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning." Further from the Oxford Dictionaries Online: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses". Experiments need to be designed to test hypotheses. Experiments are an important tool of the scientific method."

What you did not include:

"The method is a continuous process that begins with observations about the natural world...The best hypotheses lead to predictions that can be tested in various ways. The strongest tests of hypotheses come from carefully controlled experiments that gather empirical data"

"The process of the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypotheses), deriving predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions. A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested."

"The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations agree with or conflict with the predictions derived from a hypothesis. Experiments can take place anywhere from a college lab to CERN's Large Hadron Collider. There are difficulties in a formulaic statement of method, however. Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, it represents rather a set of general principles"

" Some philosophers and scientists have argued that there is no scientific method; they include physicist Lee Smolin and philosopher Paul Feyerabend (in his Against Method). Nola and Sankey[who?] remark that "For some, the whole idea of a theory of scientific method is yester-year's debate"

You also assert: " I am just saying that I rely on scientific research rather than on philosophical debate. Philosophy has taken us as far as it could, but it cannot go any farther. The frontiers of new knowledge can be breached only by science now."

Is this a philosophical statement that you are relying on about a universal assertion rather than science that can be observed (with the eyes), and tested in the natural world by science?

Obviously your universal assertion stated here is not so universal after all. It is a fallacious statement. Therefore self-defeating and self-contradictory.

You state: "Yeah, according to one stream of thought in Hinduism that I follow (Advaita, non-duality), we ourselves are illusions like the illusory world/universe that we seem to live in, a sort of matrix. And knowledge and science are the only way out of it."

If "knowledge and science are the only way out of it" then they are in it and also "are illusions" and are therefore no way out of it. Self-defeating and self-contradictory.

You repeatedly confess to science as being your ultimate authority. And yet your ultimate authority fails at the very outset of your argument.

Can science, your final standard of truth, by "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses" justify your ultimate standard of truth as true?

Can you observe, by your five senses, that " In the Absolute mode there is nothing other than Brahman."?

You deny absolute, governing laws and yet embrace an absolute mode. In that "mode" are the no guiding, binding, unchanging principles? If yes then you are self-contradictory. If no then you have no meaning or purpose.

You say this pragmatic world in which you live is just an illusion.

Then that statement is an illusion, it is not real. Therefore if that statement is not real then all things are not illusions.

Finally, because science is your final standard to which you hold as the ultimate authority of whatever is true, and this standard, by the very definition you supplied: "a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning", your worldview, with all of your arguments defending it, falls flat on its face.

Science cannot "observe, measure, experiment in a lab, or test" that science is the final authority of truth for anyone.
Your ultimate standard of truth cannot "derive(ing) predictions from them as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments based on those predictions." Your hypothesis is that in the "Absolute mode there is nothing other than Brahman." Because of the absolutely required: "systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses". Experiments need to be designed to test hypotheses. Experiments are an important tool of the scientific method.", there is absolutely no "empirical data" verifying such a "mode" as "Brahman".

Because knowledge is justified, true belief, your worldview is self-defeating, self-contradictory, incoherent, impossible to live out (even in this "pragmatic existence"). You cannot justify your belief system by your final standard of truth. Therefore you must stand on the foundation of the Christian worldview to live your life, though unwittingly, because only the Christian worldview accounts for those very Laws, which you irrationally deny, that science must depend on for its investigation.

Science investigation of data requires:
"deriving predictions from them as logical consequences" Requiring the Laws of Logic.
"observations about the natural world" Requiring the Uniformity and Laws of Nature.

Your worldview fails because it defeats its own beliefs
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Now that is a long post. I do not know what requires an answer. Like Milton said in the post above, new knowledge changes/should change what we believe (like earth is not flat, creation is older than 6,000 years, and chimps and humans evolved from the same stem) The Eastern religions are eager to incorporate changes. Not to do so is an Abrahamic trait because they have their books.
"If "knowledge and science are the only way out of it" then they are in it and also "are illusions" and are therefore no way out of it. Self-defeating and self-contradictory.

You repeatedly confess to science as being your ultimate authority. And yet your ultimate authority fails at the very outset of your argument."
I like that and will like to reply. Just as we have 'worm-holes' in 'Black holes' through which energy escapes, there is a 'worm-hole' connecting the Absolute (Paramarthika) and Pragmatic (Vyavaharika). And that worm-hole is knowledge, 'jnana'. Through knowledge, we can transcend the Pragmatic and know the Absolute.

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Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
Now that is a long post. I do not know what requires an answer. Like Milton said in the post above, new knowledge changes/should change what we believe (like earth is not flat, creation is older than 6,000 years, and chimps and humans evolved from the same stem) The Eastern religions are eager to incorporate changes. Not to do so is an Abrahamic trait because they have their books.
I like that and will like to reply. Just as we have 'worm-holes' in 'Black holes' through which energy escapes, there is a 'worm-hole' connecting the Absolute (Paramarthika) and Pragmatic (Vyavaharika). And that worm-hole is knowledge, 'jnana'. Through knowledge, we can transcend the Pragmatic and know the Absolute.

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zcGFjZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA0OC83NDYvb3JpZ2luYWwvc3VwZXJtYXNzaXZlLWJsYWNrLWhvbGUtZWRpdC5qcGc=

Now that is a long post. I do not know what requires an answer.

The sentences with question marks would be a start. And any of my challenges to your assertions and worldview, if you have a "direct and relevant" response, would be another.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And let me add something about what people believe in their ignorance and that is that there is "One God". This is the greatest ignorance which exists without any proof and is the mother of all problems in the world.
 

Rick B

Active Member
Premium Member
And let me add something about what people believe in their ignorance and that is that there is "One God". This is the greatest ignorance which exists without any proof and is the mother of all problems in the world.

Since science is your final authority then you must be able to demonstrate the truth of your assertion by way of the scientific method using empirical or measurable evidence consisting in systematic observation, testing, experiments, and formulation.

Oh, wait. That can ONLY be worked out in the NATURAL world so your assertion, according to you final authority, is self-refuting.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Is this even possible?
If everyone naturally perceives things from a different perspective, then who is right and who is wrong?

Truth is me relating the reality of my experience as objectively as possible. I am the authority on my own experience as I assume you are the authority on your own.

While I might know what's right and wrong about my own experience, I've no ideal what's right and what's wrong about your's.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Is this even possible?
If everyone naturally perceives things from a different perspective, then who is right and who is wrong?



The wise have listened to God who said-- This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased, LISTEN TO HIM.
Few will
Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added to you ( sustenance, covering, spirituality)
Then one begins their journey into accomplishing this- John 4:22-24= The Father ( YHVH(Jehovah)
 
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