Who Or What Is Israel?

[Bthoth]

And it is a modern democracy not a theocracy

Modern? That's a fallacy. Modern societies do not oppress human beings. They do not keep a 2 million soul concentration camp like GAZA. Modern democracy does not fence the streets to divide the population. And the police would not allow one side to attack the other with impunity.

Israel is an apartheid and nothing civilized about it.

Just to call israel a jewish state is a form of a theocracy with that nutlessyahoo as their 'priest' of war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is incorrect. To become an Israelite aka a Jew, it requires formal conversion to Judaism. This process adopts a person into the People of Israel. All those who undergo this process must leave their previous religions behind. A person cannot become a Jew while being a Christian.

I understand that, and I did not say that a person can remain a Christian after converting to Judaism. I understand what @dybmh said very clearly.

 

[Ebionite]

Israel was born in 1947 and has not been obedient to even the UN which created the state.

If you want to know about the real Israel then you should know about the diaspora.

 

[Bthoth]

If you want to know about the real Israel then you should know about the diaspora.

NO... I dont follow the narratives to build the pity premise.

Most everyone has a diaspora in their lineage.

ps... israel did not exist until 1947

 

[Ebionite]

NO... I dont follow the narratives to build the pity premise.

It's not about pity, it's about understanding the nature of Israel's influence in the modern world. Denying the historical facts of the house of Israel only keeps people in ignorance.

 

[Bthoth]

It's not about pity,

The why use ww2 to understand the term concentration camp.

it's about understanding the nature of Israel's influence in the modern world.

The USA is what govern's Israel's influence. Without US, israel would have been forced to back off decades ago.

Denying the historical facts of the house of Israel only keeps people in ignorance.

House of israel? That's a joke in itself. Can't use religious belief to address what israel is, a state. It's no house of Jews as many Jews have been against israel since inception. If you want to use 'the house' of israel (religious opinion), then Read Ezek 22 to identify the outcome of this problem. It is not until the nasty are gone, that the good enable what is real, religiously speaking of course.

 

[Phin]

I don't know if everyone's aware of this or not but Amos lays out the end of Israel as a people forever.

It's interesting to note that Jesus tried to warn the Jews that Amos 8 was coming to pass when he said "ye know summer is nigh".

Also interesting to note is that part of Amos 8's fulfillment was the sun going dark at noon which happened at the crucifixtion of Christ.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Amos 8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
Amos 8:4 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
Amos 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
Amos 8:6 That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?
Amos 8:7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
Amos 8:8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

 

[Ebionite]

The why use ww2 to understand the term concentration camp.

I didn't bring that up.

The USA is what govern's Israel's influence. Without US, israel would have been forced to back off decades ago.

You're clinging to ignorance about Israel.

House of israel? That's a joke in itself. Can't use religious belief to address what israel is, a state.

The union of the church and state makes your argument worthless.

 

[Bthoth]

I didn't bring that up.

You're right. It was 'diaspora' that you brought up.

You're clinging to ignorance about Israel.

What ignorance? Israel is nothing special to the rest of us (mankind). The USA supported israel to have a presence in the middle east.

The union of the church and state makes your argument worthless.

Such a union is rude to any democracy. Trying to create a state with a religious preference, is self imposed bias. The ignorant, try to claim, it's giving a free foundation when the label itself is exposing a prejudice.

That's one of my biggest arguments, that israel is claiming to be a jewish state, when judaism and Jews are far better than to ever allow an apartheid let alone create a concentration camp (gaza).

That 'house of israel' label is based on religious opinion, not fact or civil society.

 

[Ebionite]

What ignorance?

Ignorance of the historical origins of Israel and what happened during the diaspora. Herlz's Jewish state is dependant upon the pre-existence of Judaism, and Judaism was the religion of the people of Israel. The split between the house of Judah and the house of Israel is meaningful within the context of the relationship between Christianity and the state.

Such a union is rude to any democracy.

So what? It doesn't change the fact that the Act of Settlement was endorsed in the coronation oath of England's head of state.

The ignorant, try to claim, it's giving a free foundation when the label itself is exposing a prejudice.

Yes, religious prejudice is an issue for western democracy. For common law countries this goes back to the influence of Christianity at the time of King Alfred the Great.

That's one of my biggest arguments, that israel is claiming to be a jewish state, when judaism and Jews are far better than to ever allow an apartheid let alone create a concentration camp (gaza).

The people being set-apart is one of the tenets of Judaism. This doesn't imply that the people of Israel should treat others unjustly though.

 

[Bthoth]

Ignorance of the historical origins of Israel and what happened during the diaspora.

History of israel is easy. UN res 181 was the beginning of the state. Balfour letter did not start a state.

Herlz's Jewish state is dependant upon the pre-existence of Judaism, and Judaism was the religion of the people of Israel.

Hertzl's jewish state did not require palestine. It could have been anywhere. Judaism can exist and be practiced anywhere. It's a religion not a state.

The split between the house of Judah and the house of Israel is meaningful within the context of the relationship between Christianity and the state.

Gibberish

So what? It doesn't change the fact that the Act of Settlement was endorsed in the coronation oath of England's head of state.

Lots of people talk and use words. But israel did not exist before 1947. If you loved england's rule so much then why did irgun bomb so many british interests? Do you know why? SS.patria why did the terrorists blow up jews? Hiding behind civilians is what people hate of HAMAS, guess which terrorist blew up the ss patria?

Yes, religious prejudice is an issue for western democracy.

For most any actual democracy, religion dont rule. The people do.

For common law countries this goes back to the influence of Christianity at the time of King Alfred the Great.

King al is Not relevant for a country to be great.

The people being set-apart is one of the tenets of Judaism.

What? Are you suggesting judaism intends (imposes a tenet) to isolate jews from Mankind? Then why take US funding if you intend to be separate? Please just stop, you are exposing a rude mentality and I do not want you to ruin my love for judaism with rubbish.

This doesn't imply that the people of Israel should treat others unjustly though.

Then end the apartheid. Stop israel from bombing unarmed women, children and UN civilians that are trying to save lives based on empathy for human life. Make that a tenet and screw dividing people.

I understand that what HAMAS did was wrong but you cannot defend what israel is doing in retaliation/retribution. Did you read tanakh on the eventual outcome?

Since you told me what the tenet is, then repeat which people are the dross. It's sure not the Jews.

 

[Eli G]

If you want a passage that clearly says that "Israel" would no longer be that rebellious nation... meditate on this passage:

Mal. 3:16 At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
17 “And they will be mine,” says Jehovah of armies, “in the day when I produce a special property. I will show them compassion, just as a man shows compassion to his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between a righteous person and a wicked person, between one serving God and one not serving him.”

If Israel was still that nation that came out of exile... why did Jehovah tell the people through the prophet Malachi that he would create a nation in the future?

Hos. 2:23 "And I shall certainly sow her like seed for me in the earth, and I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy, and I will say to those not my people: “You are my people”; and they, for their part, will say: “[You are] my God.”’”

 

[Elihoenai]

2 Thessalonians 3:8-10

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.


I have been absent from the Forum since 31 Oct due to Commitment to the Christian Work Ethic. Many thanks to those Forum members that have kept this thread alive during my absence.

 

[Elihoenai]

Judaism makes no claim to any infallibility. You might want to study the talmudic tractate Horayot

Horayot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Christian Gnosticism and the Talmud are on Absolute Opposites of the Religious Spectrum. Elohim/God wrote the Talmud for Elohim's/God's Earthly Kingdom. I study the Torah.

Let's also see what the practitioners of Judaism has to say about Infallibility.

 

[Elihoenai]

Good, I suppose then there is less to fight out whatever they are.
"You have your way, and he has his Way.” a-la-Surah Kafirun
I neither follow Judaism nor Christian Gnosticism.

Are you an Hindu Religious Atheist?

 

[Elihoenai]

Ah, now I understand (or have started to understand). Your El/God is a composite of God and Satan.

Ephesians 4:6

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


The True Elohim/God is Creator of All Things and Is All Things. The True Elohim/God is Omni Being All Things That Exists. There is Only One Elohim/God Manifesting in different ways to different people throughout the ages. Satan/Devil is Elohim/God in its Lowest Form. This is Non-Traditional Christian Gnosticism.


Omnipotence

Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power. Monotheistic religions generally attribute omnipotence only to the deity of their faith. In the monotheistic religious philosophy of Abrahamic religions, omnipotence is often listed as one of a deity's characteristics, along with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. The presence of all these properties in a single entity has given rise to considerable theological debate, prominently including the problem of evil, the question of why such a deity would permit the existence of evil. It is accepted in philosophy and science that omnipotence can never be effectively understood.

Omnipotence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aupmanyav]

Are you an Hindu Religious Atheist?

Yeah, I am an orthodox Hindu atheist following 'Advaita' philosophy (non-duality). Therefore, no God or Goddess for me.
Nor soul, rebirth, heaven, hell too.

 

[Elihoenai]

No.... We are not Left-Hand-Paths. Judiasm is devotional to a law-giving-diety that set up a justice system to establish order. Judaism perscribes conforming to that order and justice system which is established. That is the opposite of a Left-Hand-Path as it is generally understood. Our deity is both just and merciful simultaneously, which is one of the reasons we love it with all our hearts and all our souls and each and every one of our attributes.

Left-Hand-Path Religion Cherishes and Maintains the Flesh. The Religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam Cherishes and Maintains the Flesh.

*Mod edit*

Nope. That's against the law of The Lord God, The Most High.

Leviticus 19:19​

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את־חקתי תשמרו בהמתך לא־תרביע כלאים שדך לא־תזרע כלאים ובגד כלאים שעטנז לא יעלה עליך׃​

​

You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with mixed seed; nor shall a garment mixed of linen and woollen come upon you.​

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Deut 22:9​

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לא־תזרע כרמך כלאים פן־תקדש המלאה הזרע אשר תזרע ותבואת הכרם׃​

​

You shall not sow your vineyard with different seeds; lest the fruit of your seed which you have sown, and the fruit of your vineyard, be defiled.​

Let me guess, this comes from your epistels, doesn't it? I told you already, that author, whomever they are, is corrupt. They are also power-seekers. It's a real problem.

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


The Torah is writing about Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. You haven't seen Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

"the Elohim/God you believe is Not Omni. Given that you Believe that Elohim/God cannot be Evil you have placed Limitations on Elohim/God."

​

I didn't place a limitation on God. God is executing its omnipotence by creating evil and cursing it. As I wrote. God is making a choice. If you are denying God's capability for creating evil and banishing it, YOU are placing a limitation on God.​

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View attachment 84136

Elohim/God is what it Creates. Elohim/God is Creator of Good and Evil. Elohim/God Chooses to do Good and Elohim/God choses to do Evil. Elohim/God is Good and Evil. All Things That Exist is Elohim/God. Elohim/God is Omni.

That is an incomplete statement. Omnipotence is unlimited capability. God is executing this omnipotence by CHOOSING to banish evil. It does not have an evil side BECAUSE IT CHOOSES NOT TO HAVE ONE.

Let's make this really simple.

Psalms 34:15​

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סור מרע ועשה־טוב בקש שלום ורדפהו׃​

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Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.​

If I can depart from evil, then God certaintly can depart from evil. And that is precisely what is happening.

Evil is created and simultaneously it is cursed as a consequence of creating good and blessing it.

Denying it is putting a limitation on God.

@dybmh You are the one denying what your Limited Elohim/God can do. You, @dymbh, are saying that Elohim/God does Not have the capability to be Evil and Choose Evil. You seeing the Unlimited Elohim/God in a Limited Way.

You didn't answer the question.

I asked if the author of Romans or Ephesians ever claimed to be writing in God's name. Inspired by God is not the same as writing in God's name.

A great deal of poetry has been inspired by God. It doesn't mean that it is God's words.

"All Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is Inspired of Elohim/God Speaking in Elohim's/God's Name." <---- FALSE.

Inspired =/= Speaking in the Name

All Words Written are Elohim's/God's Words. Elohim's/God's Words Inspire to Good and Elohim's/God's Words Inspire to Evil.

Nope. Not sinless. You don't know the law. Regarding casting out demons, you're not doing a very good job of that. If you think I have demons, go ahead... cast them out. You have my permission. Do your work. Prove that you are in Christ.

You are Cherishing your Demons and I have no desire the cast them out. The Demons that you Cherish is Elohim/God and Ordained by Elohim/God.

I said Eve was captivted by desire. Desire had her. She didn't have it. She was captivated. That means stuck. That means it possessed her. Just as you are possessed by the desire for power.

Elohim/God has given every person Desire to function. Elohim/God is that Desire.

I'm just quoting the scripture. Your interpretation is WAY different since your God is Satan.

ויאמר יהוה אל־השטן מאין תבא ויען השטן את־יהוה ויאמר משוט בארץ ומהתהלך בה׃​

​

And the Lord said to Satan, Where are you coming from? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.​

So, what do think? Is The Lord God, The Most High talking to itself? Is that the plain meaning of the scripture? Or is there something wriggling inside you that needs to flip-flop and twist this?

You have things Inverted. I Am Christian Monk practising Ascetism while you are having Sex, Drinking Alcohol and Eating meat. You have a better relationship with the Devil/Satan than me.

You desire ALL OF IT don't you? You desire the evil power and the good power and you desire to be omnipotent so that you can be equal to God, right? Deep down you want to be worshipped, right?

But, I would guess that you have suffered in your life, am I correct? You've struggled greatly? And if you can acheive your goals and attain that power, all of it, then all of those struggles will be worth it? All of it will have had a purpose and meaning? There would have been a reason for everything? All of this comes from a lack of faith. You NEED answers and cannot have simple faith? If so, you'll never reach the kingdom ( Matt 18:3 ). That's the ultimate fault of gnosticism. It is completely lacking in faith.

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Acts 1:8

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Attaining Power is what the Christian Faith is all about.

Nope. That is just power hungry gnostic delusion.

Yes, most Certainly, I'm Power Hungry. Hungry for Good Power.

And so do you. You've admitted it.

This is a Mystery for Gnostics.

The epistles are not word of God. If you claim they are inspired by God, and you believe that God is Satan... then you have your answer right there. The author of Romans and Ephesians was inspired by Satan while they were attempting to rewrite the words of the Lord God The Most High.

You can tell when they are possessed by the serpent because they flip-flop scripture and write with words coming from a forked tongue.

Every Word Written is Word of Elohim/God.

That's because you are not an adherent of the the word of The Lord God, The Most High. You are devoted to Power.

That's Correct. Devoted To Power. Elohim/God gives Gnostics its Good Power.

You don't know the Judaism I practice.

I know that the Judaism you practice is Fleshly Left-Hand Path Religion.

What you have written here is irrelevant to the point. You're throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

"the Flesh is Weak. All Flesh is Grass" <---- Now you have a problem.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I suppose your yashua is weak like grass and flawed by the passions of the flesh and the sin of the flesh, just like every other human being that walks the earth.

Ooops.

Matthew 26:41

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


The Willing Spirit Destroys Weak Flesh. This is the teaching of Yeshua/Jesus.

I understand it perfectly. Completely. Your God is Satan. And it makes you feel good in your heart.

The serpent lies by omission. It's words are incomplete. That's called plausible deniability. "It's not a lie, it's not a lie." "I know, big brother; it's just woefully incomplete."

The test for a whether or not a person is possessed or simply ignorant is what they do after they have been shown the error. I've explained to you that omnipotence absolutely includes the capability to curse evil and banish it. I've shown you that humans can depart from evil. If you deny that God can and does do these things, then, that's proof positive.

Readers can see that you are Worshipping a Limited Elohim/God. There is Nothing that the True Elohim/God cannot be or do. The True Elohim/God is Unlimited. You, @dymbh, are seeing the True Unlimited True Elohim/God in a Limited Way. Limiting Elohim/God is the Work of the Devil/Satan.

So you're intentionally posting Satanic videos for others to watch.

Yes. Readers can learn from the Devil/Satan.

Those are the words of Satan making their case. My teacher is the Lord God, The Most High. I choose to serve for many reasons. I don't need any power. I don't want any power. I'm not like you remember. We're opposites.

Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.


Israel has Elohim/God Given Power. You Deny this Power, therefore, you are Not Really Israel.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Satan/Devil is Elohim/God in its Lowest Form.

We do not need any kind of God, higher or lower. Millions of people do very well without it.
It is a product of human fear, hope and ignorance. Is there any evidence of existence of such a God?

 

[Elihoenai]

Has ANYONE ever said Aaronic priests are infallible? No. But they had the God given authority to interpret the Law, along with the Judges (rabbis). Deuteronomy 17:8-13

Why are you bringing up Papal infallibility? We aren't discussing Catholicism. They have nothing to do with us.

Asking the question on whether Aaronic Priests claim Infallibility like the Pope. You have said no they don't make this claim of Infallibility. Yes, the Aaronic Priests and Judges have Elohim/God given Authority. All Authority comes from Elohim/God.