Who is Jesus?

[IndigoChild5559]

Simple question that Jesus once asked, yet many answer that question differently. What is your opinion?

When you take away the mythological elements and the obvious legends that had built up over time, you are left with a nice Jewish man who, like many observant jewish scholars of that day, enjoyed arguing Torah and the finer points of Oral Torah, which was not set yet in some of its points. He was of the school of Hillel at a time when the Sanhedrin was of of the school of Shammai persuasion, so there was the classic debates between them. But for the most part, Jesus taught Torah and affirmed Oral Torah in Matthew 23:1-3, and Matthew 23:23.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Good call in recognizing the real name sir, but since you are aware of that, no doubt you know the Jesus I am referring to. Jehovah's son if you need further clarification.

I was using cemantics for fun

 

[Brian2]

Mat 16:13 Ura

And John 20: 24-31 tells us that the Son of God is the God of Thomas, as so the God of you.

 

[Brian2]

He is definitely supreme sir, number 2 in authority subject only to God 1 Cor 11:3

Yes He does submit Himself to His Father as a good son should.

 

[Brian2]

God is the creator, Jesus however is referred to as the master craftsman that assisted in all creation Col 1:16. Of course he did not create himself. Jesus was the first creation by God Rev 3:14

ALL things that have come into being have come into being through Jesus (John 1:3) therefore Jesus was not created and Rev 3:14 does not mean what you say it means, it means that Jesus was not the first in time but the first in priority, the ruler of the creation of God.
Since Jesus was not created that means He is God and was part of the creation process along with His Father.
You might read Col 1:16 to mean that "all other things were created through him" but it actually says that "ALL THINGS were created through him".

 

[capumetu]

What records are you speaking of brother?

Jehovah's people kept accurate records, for instance the genealogy leading to the Messiah is clearly recorded for us in two of the gospels. This of course proved who the Messiah was, and having a record of genealogies of families of Jacob, but when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE, sadly the records were destroyed as well, thus loss of documented genealogies.

To be an actual decendent of Jacob would only be a guess, especially down to Judah, one of His sons. One truly could not document such. Many label themselves as Jews for adhering to the Jewish faith today, which is perfectly acceptable, but as far as being a literal decendent of the tribe of Judah, is anyones guess.

 

[capumetu]

Yes He does submit Himself to His Father as a good son should.

Yes sir, I sadly was not a good son to my father, for a couple of reasons I will say, he was lacking as a father, and I grew up in the 60's. Obviously the reason I was not a good son fell on my shoulders, he did a lot for me, and I look very forward to welcomming him back in the resurrection.

It is truly strange how things work out, I shed many of tears over the loss of my father with whom I had an unperfect relationship with, and virtually none for my mom, who I got along very well with. Strange huh Brian.

 

[capumetu]

ALL things that have come into being have come into being through Jesus (John 1:3) therefore

Jesus was not created and Rev 3:14 does not mean what you say it means, it means that Jesus was not the first in time but the first in priority, the ruler of the creation of God.

Jesus was Jehovah's only begotten son sir. The reason he received that classification was that he was as I showed you "the beginning of the creation of God". Pro 8:22; Col 1:15; and Jn 1:1 support that statement. God had many sons of course, but Jesus being the first creation was created exclusively by Jehovah Himself, as nothing else existed. Col 1:16 shows how Jesus had a hand as the master craftsman Pro 8:30 in the rest of creation.
Since Jesus was not created that means He is God and was part of the creation process along with His Father.
You might read Col 1:16 to mean that "all other things were created through him" but it actually says that "ALL THINGS were created through him".

 

[firedragon]

Jehovah's people kept accurate records, for instance the genealogy leading to the Messiah is clearly recorded for us in two of the gospels. This of course proved who the Messiah was, and having a record of genealogies of families of Jacob, but when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE, sadly the records were destroyed as well, thus loss of documented genealogies.

To be an actual decendent of Jacob would only be a guess, especially down to Judah, one of His sons. One truly could not document such. Many label themselves as Jews for adhering to the Jewish faith today, which is perfectly acceptable, but as far as being a literal decendent of the tribe of Judah, is anyones guess.

You mean to say that JW's were there in the 60s. Alright.

What is the historical evidence that there were records like you speak of here?

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP., he's the Ordinal First/the Father/the LORD, CREATOR, and MAKER of all things.
and he's the Ordinal Last/the Son/the Lord, SAVIOUR of the world, and REDEEMER of the World.
and he's the ordinal First and the Ordinal Last, who is the Aleph and the Tav, the Beginning and the End, the First and the last. COMFORTER, and MEDIATOR.

he's the almighty, true and living God.

PICJAG
101G

 

[Psalm23]

Simple question that Jesus once asked, yet many answer that question differently. What is your opinion?

Jesus is Lord and Savior of the world. He is God incarnate, Creator, Messiah and my friend and Savior

 

[Brian2]

Yes sir, I sadly was not a good son to my father, for a couple of reasons I will say, he was lacking as a father, and I grew up in the 60's. Obviously the reason I was not a good son fell on my shoulders, he did a lot for me, and I look very forward to welcomming him back in the resurrection.

It is truly strange how things work out, I shed many of tears over the loss of my father with whom I had an unperfect relationship with, and virtually none for my mom, who I got along very well with. Strange huh Brian.

Yes it is strange.
I'm pretty sure I was meaning however that the Son is naturally in a position where He should submit to His Father. This does not mean that the Father and Son are not equal in nature however.

 

[Brian2]

I'm not sure what you did when you posted to me but the post (post 88) does not seem to contain all your answer since you have not answered what I said and it was all jumbled up and your answer to me was jumbled up with the quotes that you you were answering etc.
Anyway I'll try to answer what I have.

Jesus was Jehovah's only begotten son sir. The reason he received that classification was that he was as I showed you "the beginning of the creation of God". Pro 8:22; Col 1:15; and Jn 1:1 support that statement. God had many sons of course, but Jesus being the first creation was created exclusively by Jehovah Himself, as nothing else existed. Col 1:16 shows how Jesus had a hand as the master craftsman Pro 8:30 in the rest of creation.

The reason Jesus is called the unique Son is because all the others were created. We KNOW that Jesus was not created because the Bible tells us that. (John 1:3, Col 1:16 etc) The Watchtower adds to the Bible in Col 1:16 and changes it's plain meaning. So you're Bible is completely different scriptures to the Greek ones. You believe a different book.
If Wisdom personified in Prov 8 is Jesus then He is a female who lives with someone called Prudence.
But it is interesting to look at different translations of that chapter. Some say that wisdom was "created", some say that wisdom was "possessed" by God, some say that wisdom was "obtained" by God.
Going by the use of the same word in other parts of Proverbs, "obtained" or "possessed" is the correct translation. And of course we know that God has always had wisdom.
Going by other passages I would say that this Wisdom is God because other passages tell us that God was alone when He made the heavens. So anyone there with God was actually God. Eg
Isa 44:24 I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
But anyway, tell me how John 1:1 supports this statement.

 

[capumetu]

Jesus is Lord and Savior of the world. He is God incarnate, Creator, Messiah and my friend and Savior

I appreciate your comment maam, May I ask if you know what the word Messiah means?

 

[capumetu]

I'm not sure what you did when you posted to me but the post (post 88) does not seem to contain all your answer since you have not answered what I said and it was all jumbled up and your answer to me was jumbled up with the quotes that you you were answering etc.
Anyway I'll try to answer what I have.




The reason Jesus is called the unique Son is because all the others were created. We KNOW that Jesus was not created because the Bible tells us that. (John 1:3, Col 1:16 etc) The Watchtower adds to the Bible in Col 1:16 and changes it's plain meaning. So you're Bible is completely different scriptures to the Greek ones. You believe a different book.
If Wisdom personified in Prov 8 is Jesus then He is a female who lives with someone called Prudence.
But it is interesting to look at different translations of that chapter. Some say that wisdom was "created", some say that wisdom was "possessed" by God, some say that wisdom was "obtained" by God.
Going by the use of the same word in other parts of Proverbs, "obtained" or "possessed" is the correct translation. And of course we know that God has always had wisdom.
Going by other passages I would say that this Wisdom is God because other passages tell us that God was alone when He made the heavens. So anyone there with God was actually God. Eg
Isa 44:24 I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
But anyway, tell me how John 1:1 supports this statement.

Col 1:16 shows him to be the firstborn of every creature sir, Jesus as I pointed out was begotten You altered the words of Isa 44:24 to by changing Jehovah to Lord. We simply disagree, we teach Jesus was a created being.

 

[capumetu]

I'm not sure what you did when you posted to me but the post (post 88) does not seem to contain all your answer since you have not answered what I said and it was all jumbled up and your answer to me was jumbled up with the quotes that you you were answering etc.
Anyway I'll try to answer what I have.




The reason Jesus is called the unique Son is because all the others were created. We KNOW that Jesus was not created because the Bible tells us that. (John 1:3, Col 1:16 etc) The Watchtower adds to the Bible in Col 1:16 and changes it's plain meaning. So you're Bible is completely different scriptures to the Greek ones. You believe a different book.
If Wisdom personified in Prov 8 is Jesus then He is a female who lives with someone called Prudence.
But it is interesting to look at different translations of that chapter. Some say that wisdom was "created", some say that wisdom was "possessed" by God, some say that wisdom was "obtained" by God.
Going by the use of the same word in other parts of Proverbs, "obtained" or "possessed" is the correct translation. And of course we know that God has always had wisdom.
Going by other passages I would say that this Wisdom is God because other passages tell us that God was alone when He made the heavens. So anyone there with God was actually God. Eg
Isa 44:24 I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
But anyway, tell me how John 1:1 supports this statement.

I noticed that as well Brian, don't know how that came out that way. John 1:1 is obviously speaking about Jesus, and the opening words is about the creation, In the beginning, is referring to the start of creation. In it'self it appears that the Word, whom we know is Jesus was already there, but seeing the other verses that apply, we know that he was the first and only unassisted creation of the God Jehovah.

 

[Psalm23]

I appreciate your comment maam, May I ask if you know what the word Messiah means?

My understanding of Messiah is the one prophesied to come to Israel from the Old Testament. Salvation is first to the Jew then to the Gentile ( see Romans 1:16)

 

[capumetu]

My understanding of Messiah is the one prophesied to come to Israel from the Old Testament. Salvation is first to the Jew then to the Gentile ( see Romans 1:16)

Yes maam, your understanding is correct. That is what he does, but I was asking what does the word Messiah mean. It literally means anointed, which means someone anointed him, do you know who that is Ps?

 

[Brian2]

Col 1:16 shows him to be the firstborn of every creature sir, Jesus as I pointed out was begotten You altered the words of Isa 44:24 to by changing Jehovah to Lord. We simply disagree, we teach Jesus was a created being.

Well obviously we disagree and you teach Jesus was a created being when the Bible tells us that ALL THINGS that have come into existence have come into existence through Jesus. (John 1:3)
John 1:3 also shows us that the NWT is wrong at John 1:1 when it says "and the Word was a god" because we know that God is the only uncreated being. So who was this uncreated Word being? Not "a god".
I think you are purposely missing the point of the Isa 44:24 quote, which shows that the only one there spreading out the heavens and the earth was in fact Jehovah. This means that Jesus is Jehovah, since Jesus was there and the heavens are the work of His hands.
Speaking of Jesus, Heb 1:10 says
(From the New World Translation) Heb 1:10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
Also this is a quote from Psalm 102:25 speaking about God. I guess that means the Watchtower should have translated "O Lord" as "O Jehovah".

The Watchtower denies all the meanings of the word "firstborn" and the reason for that is that they want their doctrine to be right about Jesus being a created being.
Israel is called the firstborn of God even though Israel was not the first nation to come into existence. God gave them their inheritance a long time before He gave the later son, Israel, it's inheritance, yet Israel is called the firstborn. Firstborn means the one who takes the priority. (see Deut 32:8, Exodus 4:22)
We see a similar thing in Psalm 89:27 which refers prophetically to Jesus and says:
Psalm 89:27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
You don't appoint a son to be firstborn if the only way to be is to be born first.
And if you think that being "of creation" in Col 1:16 shows Jesus was created,,,,,,,,,,,,no it does not,,,,,,,,,,,,it shows that the uncreated Son of God stepped into creation when He became a man.

 

[Brian2]

I noticed that as well Brian, don't know how that came out that way. John 1:1 is obviously speaking about Jesus, and the opening words is about the creation, In the beginning, is referring to the start of creation. In it'self it appears that the Word, whom we know is Jesus was already there, but seeing the other verses that apply, we know that he was the first and only unassisted creation of the God Jehovah.

Jesus was there at the beginning of creation of all things that were created. He was not one of them. See verse 3 for proof of that.
We know that He was not created at all.The Watchtower does tend to ignore things like John 1:3 and add "other" 4 times in Col 1 where it is not in the Greek and twist the meaning of other passages in order to get their doctrine about who Jesus is.