Who does god answer to?

[Kilgore Trout]

Now why do you have to expose the truth in such a clear and shameless manner?

I have a low tolerance for BS and I've never felt that the rules apply to me.

 

[George-ananda]

In real life we answer to eachother, or more specifically to our ever evolving social standards/rules/laws/regulations/morals, which vary to varying degrees by various variables........Of course believers say we also answer to god.

But who does god answer to if not to us? Who judges god's thoughts and actions if not us?

For example, we agree that murdering innocent babies as punishment for their parent's actions/crimes is wrong, and waste no time judging and condemning this. but what if god himself murders an innocent baby, or orders a human to murder an innocent baby? Is it SUDDENLY right just because it came from GOD?

and for those itching to assert that god would never murder an innocent baby, SAVE IT. scriptures clearly tell us god PERSONALLY murdered david's innocent baby boy.....and if you are one of those cherry pickers who conveniently claim that every unpleasant thing described in scriptures did not, or might not have actually historically happened, but is just a fictional story to prove a point or teach a lesson, , please move on and continue feeling good about that perfect religious cherry basket you have picked for yourself. there is no reason to clutter the thread with that...

THANK YOU.

Man's views of God have varied much through time and culture. This OP sounds like you're hung up on the weaker aspects of the well-meaning teachings of the ancient Hebrews.

I guess I just hate to see a dead-horse (biblical fundamentalism) whipped thread after thread. It just seems like if you're smart enough to see the weaknesses of fundamentalism you are also smart enough to ignore it and pursue more challenging debates.

 

[hornsby]

Man's views of God have varied much through time and culture. This OP sounds like you're hung up on the weaker aspects of the well-meaning teachings of the ancient Hebrews.

I guess I just hate to see a dead-horse (biblical fundamentalism) whipped thread after thread. It just seems like if you're smart enough to see the weaknesses of fundamentalism you are also smart enough to ignore it and pursue more challenging debates.

you mean pursue more DISHONEST debate. no thank you. fundamentalism is where things started off, and how things were initially intended. no need to pursue slippery spawns who believe themselves to be mighty smart and enlightened by twisting and bending (interpreting and reinterpreting) their religion and scriptures in a desperate attempt to somewhat reconcile their beliefs with modern culture.

 

[McBell]

you mean pursue more DISHONEST debate. no thank you. fundamentalism is where things started off, and how things were initially intended. no need to pursue slippery spawns who believe themselves to be mighty smart and enlightened by twisting and bending (interpreting and reinterpreting) their religion and scriptures in a desperate attempt to somewhat reconcile their beliefs with modern culture.

How is it any different when non-theists believe themselves to be mighty smart and enlightened by twisting and bending (interpreting and reinterpreting) religion and scriptures in a desperate attempt to somewhat reconcile their beliefs with modern culture?

I mean, it is still dishonest, is it not, when it is done by a non-theist, right?

 

[hornsby]

How is it any different when non-theists believe themselves to be mighty smart and enlightened by twisting and bending (interpreting and reinterpreting) religion and scriptures in a desperate attempt to somewhat reconcile their beliefs with modern culture?

I mean, it is still dishonest, is it not, when it is done by a non-theist, right?

reconcile what beliefs? those trying to reconcile with modern culture are modern theists. non believers have no use for that

 

[McBell]

reconcile what beliefs? those trying to reconcile with modern culture are modern theists. non believers have no use for that

So you are not bending and or twisting any religion or scriptures?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

In real life we answer to eachother, or more specifically to our ever evolving social standards/rules/laws/regulations/morals, which vary to varying degrees by various variables........Of course believers say we also answer to god.

But who does god answer to if not to us? Who judges god's thoughts and actions if not us?

For example, we agree that murdering innocent babies as punishment for their parent's actions/crimes is wrong, and waste no time judging and condemning this. but what if god himself murders an innocent baby, or orders a human to murder an innocent baby? Is it SUDDENLY right just because it came from GOD?

and for those itching to assert that god would never murder an innocent baby, SAVE IT. scriptures clearly tell us god PERSONALLY murdered david's innocent baby boy.....and if you are one of those cherry pickers who conveniently claim that every unpleasant thing described in scriptures did not, or might not have actually historically happened, but is just a fictional story to prove a point or teach a lesson, , please move on and continue feeling good about that perfect religious cherry basket you have picked for yourself. there is no reason to clutter the thread with that...

THANK YOU.

By what standard do we account God to in order to judge God? What system do we base it on? It's like an actor going to the writer and telling him that the storyline is boring, under what standard, besides his own, does he draw that opinion from? Because it only comes from his own, the writer is also right from his own as well

 

[George-ananda]

you mean pursue more DISHONEST debate. no thank you. fundamentalism is where things started off, and how things were initially intended. no need to pursue slippery spawns who believe themselves to be mighty smart and enlightened by twisting and bending (interpreting and reinterpreting) their religion and scriptures in a desperate attempt to somewhat reconcile their beliefs with modern culture.

Are you trying to say there are only two HONEST positions, fundamentalism and atheism???

And the rest of us are pursing 'slippery spawns' as you say?

 

[hornsby]

So you are not bending and or twisting any religion or scriptures?

no......but if you think i am, make your case

 

[ChristineES]

funny you should mention that. i suppose its no coincidence that christians continue this ritual and eat the body and drink the blood of christ during communion.

regardless. the barbaric torture and slaughter of an innocent being as payment/punishment for the crimes of another being is in question here.

And I thought it was bread and wine. Bread represents the meat of a sacrificial lamb and the wine represents the blood put around the doors during the first Passover in Exodus. It is not supposed to be about cannibalism. But I think I am talking to deaf ears on this one.

 

[hornsby]

Are you trying to say there are only two HONEST positions, fundamentalism and atheism???

And the rest of us are pursing 'slippery spawns' as you say?

correct......modern theists are raised in modern society like everyone else, but are also stuck with the outdated social moral standards their various religions represent. so they feel the need to adapt and try to somehow bridge the gaps, or abandon either their religion, or the modern standards of the society they live in....... great example of this are secular muslims who cherry pick what rules to follow.....so they will go to the bar, order alcohol, skip the pork dinner because they are suddenly oh so devout, and then pick up a lady and go home to commit adultery, because in their minds not eating pork somehow makes up for it......this also applies to secular catholics with their "its ok, ill say a few hail marys afterwards" mentality, or homosexual christians who conveniently re interpret scripture, etc......well sorry, but it is what it is. either you follow your religion the fundamentalist way (as it was founded) or you dishonestly cherry pick and try to reconcile modern secular culture and morals with it in hopes of creating that convenient custom lifestyle you are comfortable with.

 

[hornsby]

And I thought it was bread and wine. Bread represents the meat of a sacrificial lamb and the wine represents the blood put around the doors during the first Passover in Exodus. It is not supposed to be about cannibalism. But I think I am talking to deaf ears on this one.

right, thats why the pastor keeps repeating, "this is the body of christ" in reference to the bread and blood of christ to the wine....eh?

 

[ChristineES]

right, thats why the pastor keeps repeating, "this is the body of christ" in reference to the bread and blood of christ to the wine....eh?

*sigh*Jesus is represented as the Lamb. We believe He died in place of an unblemished lamb- but since we couldn't eat Him as lamb, He told us to bread in place of lamb. I repeat, it is not supposed to representing cannibalism. But my explanation will not satisfy you.

 

[hornsby]

*sigh*Jesus is represented as the Lamb. We believe He died in place of an unblemished lamb- but since we couldn't eat Him as lamb, He told us to bread in place of lamb. I repeat, it is not supposed to representing cannibalism. But my explanation will not satisfy you.

i never said anything about cannibalism. you brought that up. i take issue with god's bloodthirsty sacrifice demands.......if a dictator demanded a criminal's innocent children be torture and/or killed as a sacrifice to cover the crimes you would join me in condemning this practice......but because god is the dictator in question its suddenly kosher for you??? this is exactly what i mean by modern theists cherry picking and turning a blind eye to somehow appease their religions with their own modern secular sense of morality

 

[ChristineES]

i never said anything about cannibalism. you brought that up. i take issue with god's bloodthirsty sacrifice demands.......if a dictator demanded a criminal's innocent children be torture and/or killed as a sacrifice to cover the crimes you would join me in condemning this practice......but because god is the dictator in question its suddenly kosher for you??? this is exactly what i mean by modern theists cherry picking and turning a blind eye to somehow appease their religions with their own modern secular sense of morality

I can't debate you. I have no idea where you are getting this from. If you don't like the faith, don't follow it. But please don't accuse me of doing things such as cherry picking when you haven't the slightest idea how I believe. How can eating a lamb as a feast do anything with what you are saying? Are you condemning Passover? That is a Jewish holiday feast that they have been doing for more than 3,000 years (I have Jewish ancestry although I am a Christian). I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. Jesus was having that feast during the Lord's supper. Some people in the past compared it to cannibalism and I thought you were doing that, too- but I was mistaken.

I never heard of children being tortured or sacrificed in either Christianity or Judaism.

If this is how you view religion, then so be it. But expect me to be a party any longer to this sort of debate.
God bless. No hard feelings, I am not angry.

 

[hornsby]

i just told you that i have no issue with the actual eating. you were the one who brought up the eating of the meat in the first place.....my issue is with god's requirement for the sacrifice of an innocent being to somehow cover the wrongdoing of another being........jesus was tortured and killed to cover our sins, and god killed davids innocent baby as punishment for davids sins.....if we had such practices in our justice system you would be outraged like everyone else, but when god is the one doing/requiring this, its just fine with you all if the sudden.......congratulations on your smooth exit btw.

 

[jonman122]

i just told you that i have no issue with the actual eating. you were the one who brought up the eating of the meat in the first place.....my issue is with god's requirement for the sacrifice of an innocent being to somehow cover the wrongdoing of another being........jesus was tortured and killed to cover our sins, and god killed davids innocent baby as punishment for davids sins.....if we had such practices in our justice system you would be outraged like everyone else, but when god is the one doing/requiring this, its just fine with you all if the sudden.......congratulations on your smooth exit btw.

I liked the exit, it was clear, concise and mature.

Unlike much of what you've been saying so far.

Some people don't view Jesus sacrifice as him being sacrificed by God for us, logically that's what we conclude given the circumstances of his (alleged) arrival on this plane but I know some who would view it as Jesus' sacrificing himself for us, so that he was a martyr for our sins rather than being sacrificed by God. The belief they hold isn't rational in the first place, it isn't logical, it's spiritual and based in faith to them so they aren't going to try and pick it apart rationally like we will.

There's no point in trying unless they're the ones bringing it up, because their beliefs might not have anything to do with what you're talking about considering there are so many denominations of Christianity.

 

[Blackdog22]

People ate the meat they sacrificed. So you just condemned every person who eats meat.

The specific point I was getting to when responding to Hornsy was in regards to Gods old law. At no point in the Bible does God say he made a mistake with the old law. In no place does he ask forgiveness or confess guilt over all the horrible things Christians no longer follow. In fact the old laws preachings are regarding highly by the New Testaement, God still desires these things, but has put them aside because he likes blood sacrifice. This is a problem for me.

Anyone feel free to respond to this even though its a response to Christine I am really wanting as many thoughts on this as I can get.

 

[Blackdog22]

I never heard of children being tortured or sacrificed in either Christianity or Judaism.

There are a number of passages that suggest it may of been common practice. Abraham is a well known one, which although the sacrifice never happened, it doesn't really make it seem like Abraham was in shock, he was very obedient as if this was something he may consider normal of his Gods character.

Jephthah is a lesser known story that directly shows an act of burnt sacrifice to God that God doesn't seem to have any qualms about.

Of course Jesus was a human sacrifice. Jonman made a point that some Christians view it as a willing sacrifice and while that is true, the Bible seems to indicate Jesus very much did not want to do this. His prayer begging God to let this pass from him before accepting obedience shows an unwillful sacrifice, although one he may of felt needed to happen. Kind of like killing yourself to save your Mom, you don't want too, but in some instances it maybe necessary.

Edit: Rereading what you said the Jesus example may not be what you meant by children (Was looking at it from the perspective we are all children of God under Christian belief), but perhaps your take on sacrifice in general by any God could be interesting.

 

[chinu]

Who does god answer to?

He answers only to me