Who do you believe Jesus was/is?

[Katzpur]

Does a soldier stop in the middle of a fight to converse with a beautiful lady in a window?

Well, since you put it that way...

 

[Katzpur]

I am currently listening to a 16 hour lecture series by Prof. Bart D. Erhman called "The Lost Christianities" dealing with Christian sects which died out but were popular after the time of the historical Jesus and up till the Council of Nicea and he discusses this Passion/Anti-Semetism phenomenon, and, I beleive would come to the same conclusion as Mr. Crossman.

By the way, if anyone gets a chance to listen to "The Lost Christianities" it is a very eye opening experience.

B.

Where can I get this?

 

[Comet]

Do you think that every person who lived before Jesus was tossed away into nothingness simply because Jesus had not yet arrived to tell us that we are saved?

Jesus' sacrifice was an incredible event in the universe. Imagine what the many angelic beings who know Jesus as a created being from God went through when humans tortured Him and nailed Him to a cross. And people have the nerve to blame God for things.

The sacrifice was Jesus' way of teaching us that we are loved and forgiven and it worked to a greater degree than any previous revelation.

What child always does exactly as their parents direct? Don't we all have to learn some things through personal experience?

There is only one thing that is unforgiveable and that is denial of deity. To know God and turn away from Him.

People before Jesus were still (already) forgiven by God.

What is it that any angelic being should be going through if they would already know that Jesus is only shedding a human body? I would think they would be expirienced enough to know the difference, better than humans anyway.

Jesus' sacrifice only? Was it not also God's sacrifice and God's way of reminding us?

The next I do not dispute at all.

I do not view GOD as a deity at all. I deny the "deity" of GOD, but not the "deity" of any God. Turning from Gods is to turn towards that which is GOD, not another God.

We all have much to learn, that I agree with you 100% on. That is why we are all here.

 

[Katzpur]

If Jesus is not God, not equal to God, and is just the son of God then he is just another child of God. As you say our own souls are as well. If nobody else can give us the answers and we should trust our OWN expiriences, then why should I worship or try to live through a brother of mine???? Why should you count on another like yourself to give you answers or to save you by following a church that claims to follow him??

Just the Son of God? You make that sound like such a negative thing! We are all children of God, but Jesus was God's "Only Begotten Son." God (i.e. the Father) was literally the Father of Jesus Christ. He was the only one of God's children who existed with Him in the beginning. He was the only one who, under His Father's direction, created our universe. He was the only one good enough to pay the price for the sins of all of the rest of us. He was the only one who had the power to lay down His own life and raise it up again -- independently of His Father. "Just another child of God"?

For every passage of scripture you can show me that indicates the Father and the Son to be equal, I can show you a half dozen that show that the Son is in a position of subordination to His Father. This doesn't make Him "just" anything. He is the Son of God, our Savior, our Mediator with the Father, and our King. The only thing He isn't is the same individual as His own Father.

By the way, you list your religion as A.M.G. I'm sorry if I missed a post somewhere back, but what do those initials stand for?

 

[Comet]

Just the Son of God? You make that sound like such a negative thing! We are all children of God, but Jesus was God's "Only Begotten Son." God (i.e. the Father) was literally the Father of Jesus Christ. He was the only one of God's children who existed with Him in the beginning. He was the only one who, under His Father's direction, created our universe. He was the only one good enough to pay the price for the sins of all of the rest of us. He was the only one who had the power to lay down His own life and raise it up again -- independently of His Father. "Just another child of God"?

For every passage of scripture you can show me that indicates the Father and the Son to be equal, I can show you a half dozen that show that the Son is in a position of subordination to His Father. This doesn't make Him "just" anything. He is the Son of God, our Savior, our Mediator with the Father, and our King. The only thing He isn't is the same individual as His own Father.

By the way, you list your religion as A.M.G. I'm sorry if I missed a post somewhere back, but what do those initials stand for?

I did not state that they were equal or not equal.... I was asking a question to the ones that are debating which it is.

I thought the universe was created by God long before Jesus came along? I don't recall seeing Jesus as a part of that in Genesis..... perhaps you can show me the scripture where he is mentioned in there. He may be your Savior and King, but he is not to all. As Super and I were discussing: back to GOD by our own path. To some that invovles Jesus, to others it does not..... to say Jesus is the ONLY way to God would be place limitations upon God. GOD has no limitations!!!!

(I will private msg you about what A.M.G. stands for- not many ask or care to):bounce

 

[Super Universe]

People before Jesus were still (already) forgiven by God.

What is it that any angelic being should be going through if they would already know that Jesus is only shedding a human body? I would think they would be expirienced enough to know the difference, better than humans anyway.

Jesus' sacrifice only? Was it not also God's sacrifice and God's way of reminding us?

The next I do not dispute at all.

I do not view GOD as a deity at all. I deny the "deity" of GOD, but not the "deity" of any God. Turning from Gods is to turn towards that which is GOD, not another God.

We all have much to learn, that I agree with you 100% on. That is why we are all here.

Shedding a human body? Of course the angels knew that. One angel could have crumbled every building in Jerusalem in a second, but they were not allowed to. They watched as human's tortured and killed the Son of God sent to teach us. This was a truly incredible (both shocking and moving) event in the universe.

Imagine how you would feel if your brother was to go through the same experience and you had the power of a thousand suns at your disposal but your brother forbid you to use it?

It did not have to happen that way but we are an extremely stubborn species.
You can choose to deny what you wish. Humanity purposely has clouded eyes. You do not truly know God so you cannot truly deny Him.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

When you know my Gods, you can deny them, then.

 

[Katzpur]

I did not state that they were equal or not equal.... I was asking a question to the ones that are debating which it is.

My mistake then. It sounded as if you were arguing that the Father and the Son are equal.

I thought the universe was created by God long before Jesus came along? I don't recall seeing Jesus as a part of that in Genesis..... perhaps you can show me the scripture where he is mentioned in there.

In Hebrews 1:1-2 we read, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." So, God was the "mastermind" behind the creation, but the universe was actually created by Jesus Christ.

He may be your Savior and King, but he is not to all. As Super and I were discussing: back to GOD by our own path. To some that invovles Jesus, to others it does not.....

Again, I stand corrected. I was basing my reply on what I mistakenly assumed your own position was. Obviously, He is only Savior to those who accept Him as such.

Jesus is the ONLY way to God would be place limitations upon God. GOD has no limitations!!!!

I'm not following your logic, I'm afraid. How does this belief limit God? I certainly don't believe God is limited in any way, but I believe that He sent His Son to earth to redeem us from the effects of our sins.

(I will private msg you about what A.M.G. stands for- not many ask or care to):bounce

So it's a secret, huh? Okay, whatever.

 

[Comet]

When you know my Gods, you can deny them, then.

Point taken, I meant not to offend you by the comment. (Believe me, I know what it is like to be frowned upon)

 

[Comet]

Shedding a human body? Of course the angels knew that. One angel could have crumbled every building in Jerusalem in a second, but they were not allowed to. They watched as human's tortured and killed the Son of God sent to teach us. This was a truly incredible (both shocking and moving) event in the universe.

Imagine how you would feel if your brother was to go through the same experience and you had the power of a thousand suns at your disposal but your brother forbid you to use it?

It did not have to happen that way but we are an extremely stubborn species.
You can choose to deny what you wish. Humanity purposely has clouded eyes. You do not truly know God so you cannot truly deny Him.

What human could kill a soul? You can only kill your own. I would think that beings of a higher level would see the "bigger" picture in things and know that Jesus was not dying, but only shedding a body and doing so for a purpose to many others. Why would they wish to stop it?

Stories of "eyes clouded" goes way back and is in many religions, I am well aware of that and do agree. How is it you can say what it is I truly know? I do not speak for you but ask questions to better understand things by other's eyes. I need nobody else to speak for me and what I know and believe. We all understand differently and learn at different speeds. I am not saying I am better or smarter than anyone, nor am I saying what others know or don't know.

 

[Comet]

My mistake then. It sounded as if you were arguing that the Father and the Son are equal.

In Hebrews 1:1-2 we read, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." So, God was the "mastermind" behind the creation, but the universe was actually created by Jesus Christ.


Again, I stand corrected. I was basing my reply on what I mistakenly assumed your own position was. Obviously, He is only Savior to those who accept Him as such.

I'm not following your logic, I'm afraid. How does this belief limit God? I certainly don't believe God is limited in any way, but I believe that He sent His Son to earth to redeem us from the effects of our sins.

So it's a secret, huh? Okay, whatever.

Thanks for the passage. How would the belief that Jesus is the ONLY way to God limit God? That would be to say that God could only create ONE way to him that he could not give to ALL. Perhaps that is the limit of Jesus and not of God though....... and why I do not follow Jesus, but GOD. GOD is not limited in the ways of anything.

Not a secret, just doesn't have to do with this debate. Others don't ask, so why waste there time?

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for the passage. How would the belief that Jesus is the ONLY way to God limit God? That would be to say that God could only create ONE way to him that he could not give to ALL. Perhaps that is the limit of Jesus and not of God though....... and why I do not follow Jesus, but GOD. GOD is not limited in the ways of anything.

"Could" and "chose to" are not the same thing. You don't really know me yet, but once you read a few of my posts, you'll realize that I am not one of these people who believe that only Christians will go to heaven. My perspective is a little bit more complicated than that.

 

[Super Universe]

What human can kill a soul? No human can.

The angels did know the 'big' picture but still this did not change their sense of regret and remorse for the experience that Jesus went through. Why would they wish to stop it? I ask you again, how would you feel if your brother was crucified?

Once again, this event did not suddenly save humanity, we were already saved. The angels know full well our history and that we have turned away from revelation many times.

What if even after the Son of God gave up His temporary life in such a way the humans still did not believe?

How can I say what you truly know? I assumed. You stated above that you believe that God is not deity at all so unless you are another Satan then I must assume that you do not truly know God.

Also if you do truly know God then you wouldn't doubt the existence of His Son. So likely my assumption was correct.

 

[Comet]

What human can kill a soul? No human can.

The angels did know the 'big' picture but still this did not change their sense of regret and remorse for the experience that Jesus went through. Why would they wish to stop it? I ask you again, how would you feel if your brother was crucified?

Once again, this event did not suddenly save humanity, we were already saved. The angels know full well our history and that we have turned away from revelation many times.

What if even after the Son of God gave up His temporary life in such a way the humans still did not believe?

How can I say what you truly know? I assumed. You stated above that you believe that God is not deity at all so unless you are another Satan then I must assume that you do not truly know God.

Also if you do truly know God then you wouldn't doubt the existence of His Son. So likely my assumption was correct.

I do differinciate between god, God, and GOD. I do not deny the existence of Gods, nor a supreme God. I merely do not worship them or him. I worship GOD, that which is beyond our comprehension-for GOD is unlike anything we can imagine or fully know till we are back with GOD. We seem to seek the same thing, just in a different way and understanding thereof. Likewise with all of us here. That is why I am here, to learn like everyone else.

I have never doubted the existence of Jesus! When have I denied the existence of him being? I only have tried to make it the point that his life is not the most meaningful thing to all nor the only way in which one may come to know God or whatever term you wish to use. Whether they came before his time or after his time, it would matter not except to those that truly did need him.

 

[Super Universe]

I must admit that I am confused by your position. Are you suggesting that there is one true creator of the universe and other gods as well? Do you consider angels gods?

Previously you have stated that Jesus (like a human) is just another child of God, a brother of yours, even that he is just as confused as everyone else. So when you now say that you have never doubted the existence of Jesus it only adds to the confusion.

I truly do not understand your point of view.

 

[Comet]

I must admit that I am confused by your position. Are you suggesting that there is one true creator of the universe and other gods as well? Do you consider angels gods?

Previously you have stated that Jesus (like a human) is just another child of God, a brother of yours, even that he is just as confused as everyone else. So when you now say that you have never doubted the existence of Jesus it only adds to the confusion.

I truly do not understand your point of view.

That "statement" was really started as a question with "If"- it confused Katz as well. I apologize for that. I am not the most eloquent.... though answers come from questions.

You stated once about how ants would view us..... how is it a caveman would view a man with a lighter? How is it that a human should view an angel? Were we to enter a two-dimensional creatures world, we would be beyond its comprehension. We would appear as two circles every changing till it became one bigger circle, then a large circle with two small circles beside it changing till it became one large circle that went into a smaller circle, just before it disappeared from view. (I will explain if needed) Have you ever thought of what an ant does think, or if it does at all?

For Super and Katz: Appellative Monistic Gnostic

I hate to use this forum to discuss what wasn't asked at the start, for the sake of Fervent.... so I apologize to them as well. I will try to be breif now and perhaps start my own thread where we may discuss all this.

To clear the confusion on this discussion: I believe in ONE which is NONE and MANY as well. Most "Theists" are quick to denounce me as an Atheist. Most Atheist won't take me for they call me a "Theist". Monists do not claim me as I am open to both Theism and Atheism. I believe in that which is beyond even the supreme one God that many have started to see. What I percieve as GOD is beyond being! It is being and nonbeing all in ONE. There is no "good" and "evil". One's good is another's evil. They stem from the same source. Love and pain, the same thing. Are eyes are clouded and we are narrow-minded. That is why I found this place..... at least here there are some who have come to know themselves and what they believe, and they are willing to share. I may not understand any of you, nor you me.... but here we share that we all may learn and grow closer to that which we seek.

As I have said, we each have our OWN relationship with God/GOD and our OWN path to him/it. If you feel I speak ill of any of you know I do not, and I apologize if you feel I have. I am here to learn, just as you. I will start a "new thread" soon where any who wish to talk about all this may do so together...... this thread is for what you believe Jesus is or was. To clairify my position on that: I HAVE YET TO VOTE ON THIS POLE AND I JOINED BY ASKING A QUESTION AS TO WHY THERE WAS NOT ANOTHER OPTION OF THAT WHICH SOME PEOPLE I HAVE HEARD OF DO BELIEVE HE WAS/IS.

PS- I hope when I start that new thread that Super and Katz will at least join on. Thank you both!

 

[Comet]

. Are eyes are clouded and we are narrow-minded.

That is to read: "Our eyes are clouded and we are narrow-minded.

 

[Booko]

That is to read: "Our eyes are clouded and we are narrow-minded.

You know you can edit your posts? There will be a little "edit" in the upper right hand corner. Click on that and you can correct your spelling.

 

[Comet]

You know you can edit your posts? There will be a little "edit" in the upper right hand corner. Click on that and you can correct your spelling.

Thank you, I am still new to this site. I still don't know how to post something new or new polls. You are the one who is second only to Super Universe in my conversations here..... I shall invite you as well when I learn to post that conversation. Also, we do and say what we do..... repent then or try to correct or acknowledge a new understaning, but do not go back and change that which is done already; it makes us who/what we are! :biglaugh:

 

[Evandr2]

It seems pretty obvious that this whole debate about God the Father and the Son is getting bogged down.

God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, His spiritual son and our spiritual brother, was his only begotten in the flesh - He was in mortal form - He was here and spoke of His (Our) Eternal Heavenly Father as being there, somewhere else. It really is that simple!

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can take something so plain to understand, logical, and obvious and then twist it into something that needs to be hid behind odd and confusing rhetoric that has been put to poetic words.

It is a poor teacher who cannot, or will not reach the understanding of their students the most efficient way possible. God is not a poor teacher. He is not confusing. He is God and I will understand what He wants me to understand if I will humble myself with real intent and ask. Read James 1:5-8

Vandr