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Who do you believe Jesus was/is?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by FerventGodSeeker, May 1, 2006.

?
  1. Jesus never existed.

    5.3%
  2. Jesus may have existed, but the details of his life have been distorted/overblown by Christianity

    47.4%
  3. Jesus was a prophet or messenger of God, but not equal to God.

    10.5%
  4. Jesus is God (i.e. the Trinity)

    36.8%
  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Of course. That's is how I understood it as well. But how else would the Romans recognize a Jewish King without the help of those who know the difference?
    My intent was to show he wasn't buried in the traditional Roman style.
    Wasn't the Herodian Dynasty still around at the time of Christ? What is it about this King that they feared?
     
  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    again, i don't think it was necessarily that they cared if anyone, Jesus or Carl, was being proclaimed a King, just that he was and, as i understand it, the Romans understood the concept of Moshiach in the Jewish sense, that this person would not stand by while Israel was subjugated.

    it's the difference between a king they controlled and someone that the jewish people were looking to overthrow the yoke of oppression and reestablish the Davidic line and an independent Jewish state.

    that's just how i see it.
     
  3. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

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    I couldn't agree more. Well said in a short statement that would take way too long to explain to another who disagrees with it.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Super Universe,

    Just five posts prior to the one I am quoting, I addressed these very issues, citing several scriptures to support my point of view. Was there a reason why you simply ignored my post and asked the same questions a second time?
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    I see little reason to believe that the Passion narrative is anything but fiction and good reason to reject it as such. You might wish to read by John Dominic Crossan.
     
  6. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Matthew 4:17 "And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, and with Him I am well pleased.'"

    Jesus own words:
    Matthew 7:21 "...whether they obey my Father in heaven."
    Matthew 12:27 "My Father has given me authority over everything."
    Matthew 12:32 "Anyone who blasphemes against me, the son of man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven."
    Matthew 15:13 "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up."
    Matthew 17:17 "You are blessed Simon, son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you."
    Matthew 17:27 "For I, the Son of Man, will come in the glory of my Father with his angels and will judge all according to their deeds."
    Matthew 18:10 "...in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father."
    Matthew 18:14 "...it is not my heavenly Father's will that even one of these little ones should perish."
    Matthew 18:19 "...my Father in heaven will do it for you."
    Matthew 19:35 "That's what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters in your heart."
    Matthew 20:23 "...My Father has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen."
    Matthew 23:9 "And don't address anyone here on earth as 'Father,' for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father."
    Matthew 25:36 "No one knows ...not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows."
    Matthew 31:34 "...'Come, you who are blessed by my Father,"
    Matthew 26:53 "Don't you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and He would send them instantly?"
    Matthew 27:64 "...And in the future you will see me, the Son of Man, sitting at God's right hand in the place of power and coming back on the clouds in heaven."
    Matthew 28:19 "...baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

    Multiply these by the number of times the story of Jesus is repeated in the New Testament.

    Your own posts mention "My Father", Jesus as the Son. Yet you still choose to believe they are one in the same?

    What is more important, being Baptist, or being right?
     
  7. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Dear Miss:
    I did not ignore your post. I read it dutifully and agreed with it entirely but at the time, and still, I am in the thick of it with Abram.

    Does a soldier stop in the middle of a fight to converse with a beautiful lady in a window?
     
  8. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Thanks, and probably some day i will read it.

    Although, i have to say that i think it is dangerous to place total blaim upon Rome. What threat could the Roman Empire really perceive in the son of a carpenter from, as far as they were concerned, a back-water outpost?

    Its possible he could have started an uprising, although all his teachings suggest that was not his intention. He never once claimed to be the Moshiach. He claimed his kingdom was "not of this world".
    The Roman Empire could have crushed any rebellion, and they did in 70CE.

    Although i agree with some people that the passion narrative is certainly biased and unlikely an accurate account of events, as i believe all four canonical gospels have been edited and corrupted over time. To remove any involvement by the Pharisaic priesthood in the capture and case built against Jesus would be just as silly as placing all blame upon them.

    I imagine the Roman's would have loved to make an example out of Jesus, to show others not to question Roman authority. But i must also entertain the idea that the Pharisees wanted him gone as much as the Romans.
     
  9. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I know he says my father! But at the same time they compare them as equal. The point of Jesus was to show us how to worship God. If Jesus came and said to everyone, "I am God, worship me." What kind of example would that be?

    If Jesus wan not God how could he forgive sins? If Jesus is not God then his wrath is still against all. If Jesus was not not God then his death was meaningless. The point of the entire Bible is to reveal God on earth. If Jesus was not God he is not alive toda

    From C.S. Lewis:
    • I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. 2
     
  10. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Jesus equal to God? It depends on how you define equal. They are separate beings but from our point of view they are equal. From the eyes of an ant are not a man and child equal in power over it?

    How could Jesus forgive sin? Your true self, your soul, is a child of God. Your sins have always been forgiven, since before you were born you were forgiven. Jesus set no new laws into motion, nothing changed.

    Jesus wrath? There is no such thing. There is only a continuing and an ending, it is your choice which is for you.

    Jesus death was meaningless? But He is not dead. The human form He occupied for a time is dead but what is that? You think the most important thing in the universe is to be a human? But what human lives forever? Have you known any?

    What is the seventy year life of a human compared to the universe? You think the entire universe revolves around what a few primitive self absorbed beings on one small planet believe?

    Jesus was finally able to open the eyes of some but there is so much more for us to learn. And we really are taking a very long time with it.

    Are you beginning to see?

    Do not be afraid to depart from the strict Baptist teachings for it is a creation of man. Trust yourself. Trust logic and your own experiences to guide you. God trusts you with His universe and He gave you free will so you could explore it and find Him yourself. Do so with vigilance and purpose and do not count on me or anyone else to give you the answers.

    No church can save you. I cannot save you.

    You must do that yourself.
     
  11. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    I am currently listening to a 16 hour lecture series by Prof. Bart D. Erhman called "The Lost Christianities" dealing with Christian sects which died out but were popular after the time of the historical Jesus and up till the Council of Nicea and he discusses this Passion/Anti-Semetism phenomenon, and, I beleive would come to the same conclusion as Mr. Crossman.

    By the way, if anyone gets a chance to listen to "The Lost Christianities" it is a very eye opening experience.

    B.
     
  12. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

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    If Jesus is not God, not equal to God, and is just the son of God then he is just another child of God. As you say our own souls are as well. If nobody else can give us the answers and we should trust our OWN expiriences, then why should I worship or try to live through a brother of mine???? Why should you count on another like yourself to give you answers or to save you by following a church that claims to follow him??
     
  13. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    I like how you wrote this...

    My hang up is that you say our sins have always be forgiven. If they were then why are we to repent. If our sins have been forgiven then there would be no reason to repent, right? We could just go through life trying to please our selfs.

    Who is Jesus to you? Where did he come from, why did he come and where did he go?
    What did he mean by saying I am the only way?

    I agree with you when you say that no church will save you, I call my self a Baptist because of the intensity that ask us to follow. (don't just say you love him, show him you love him.) I've been to many churches of many denominations so I don't hold this view because my parents and preacher tells me to. When I read the Bible this is the picture I see, more so in the book of John and Isaiah.
     
  14. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Oh I believe he existed but my faith rests upon this belief, not his actual existence. This is because, at this moment, I cannot know whether he truly existed or not. My faith is constructed upon my assumption that my belief is knowledge. If this was in fact totally incorrect and Jesus did not exist, this would have no impact on my faith since I would not know about it.

    Therefore, Jesus' existence is totally independent of my faith. The only fundamental part is whether I believe he existed or not.
     
  15. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Human souls are God's children, ascending beings who are on a universal career of exploration and life experiences.

    Jesus is a created descending being who is in a leadership role over this area of the universe.

    Why should I count on another? Do you produce all of your own food? Do you grow the materials to make your own clothes? Did you build your home and manufacture all the materials yourself? No one person has all the answers.

    Perhaps you meant this towards Jesus? You can have your life experience and have faith in God without any in the Son. Jesus own words "Anyone who blasphemes against me, the son of man, can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven."

    If Jesus words do not touch you then go on with your life and live it as you so choose.


     
  16. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    What do the overwhelming majority of people do? They live their lives trying to please themselves. Most will give a small amount of money each year to their favorite charity but that is all, they will not lift a hand to help unless they are asked directly from a friend. They will give but not break into a sweat to help.

    But do you think this is enough? If you do then you should think again. I said there is no punishment, there is continuing and ending. If the human personality (who you think you are) does not accept your everlasting soul (who you really are) then after death the soul returns to God alone. What use does the universe have for a selfish being?

    Now if you are able to fuse with the soul then you can look forward to an incredible journey.

    Souls are children of God who are on an evolutionary path to God. This path can be straight, directly to God, or it can be winding and experience many different areas and many different positions of service in the universe. It is your choice.

    Who is Jesus to me? A created descending Son of God who has experienced a human life experiment and now is in leadership of this area of the universe. He came from God, created for a purpose, with full sentience, no need to evolve any further.

    Jesus meant that only through Him can we find God because He is God's representative in this area. Jesus may have control over our human personalities and decide which join with the children of God (souls), but I do not know this for sure.

    I am not here to say that choosing Baptist, or any other religion, is wrong. But I will say this, if many years from now you believe the exact same as when you joined, then you haven't learned a thing.
     
  17. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    This is a bold statement implying many things? I hope I'm misunderstanding this remark.
    Your telling me to keep my mind open with a closed mind statement?
     
  18. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

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    I have a question about the statement from Jesus? Did he not come here partly to make our sins forgiven? If so, then why is it that something "can never be forgiven" then?
    Seems to me he is just as confused as everyone else. I guess I'd have to go back and agree with whoever it was that said - our sins were already forgiven by God.:tuna:
     
  19. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    A closed mind statement?

    Sigh... Look again at the statement.

    If years later you still think the exact same then you haven't learned a thing.

    The reason you haven't learned a thing is because you think the same. It's quite logical and is not meant to condemn the Baptist faith.
     
  20. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Do you think that every person who lived before Jesus was tossed away into nothingness simply because Jesus had not yet arrived to tell us that we are saved?

    Jesus' sacrifice was an incredible event in the universe. Imagine what the many angelic beings who know Jesus as a created being from God went through when humans tortured Him and nailed Him to a cross. And people have the nerve to blame God for things.

    The sacrifice was Jesus' way of teaching us that we are loved and forgiven and it worked to a greater degree than any previous revelation.

    What child always does exactly as their parents direct? Don't we all have to learn some things through personal experience?

    There is only one thing that is unforgiveable and that is denial of deity. To know God and turn away from Him.
     
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