Who created all things: God or the Son?

[Sargonski]

I disagree, primarily because that contradicts what I believe the Bible says.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus was both with God and was God. This is hard to understand unless you accept the fact that one God exists in three form: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I, a human, also exist in three forms: body, soul, and spirit.

John 1 does not support the Trinity ... and certainly the author of John did not believe that Jesus was God.

The first problem is the mistranslation of the term "Logos" ... which can mean "word" but in a religious context means the emmisary between Man and God.. John 1 does however argue for the pre-existence of Jesus .. which is something new.

So According to John . Jesus is The Logos .. a title like "the Adversary" but instead of being the tester of souls the job of the Logos is to bring God's word to humans .. and thus in this way Jesus is the Physical Manifestation of God's word .. "Is Gods Word" - speaks Gods word through the Holy Spirit.

So .. in the Beginnig was "The Logos" and The Logos was with God in Heaven (pre-incarnate) .. and the Logos was .. literally .. the physical manifestation of God's word. Hellenic / Platonic Philosophy .. with a little Gnostism in the mix.

None of the Early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was God .. they were subordinantists. .. believing that Jesus was subordinate to the Father. It was Tuterrlian around 200 AD who first spouted somethign resembling modern Trinity doctrine .. at the time was considered Heresy by the Church .. the squablles over the divinity of Christ raged throughout the 3rd century ... Those squabbles put to an end by Emperor Constantine who around 325 AD settled the issue declaring that Jesus was "Homoousios" .. which meant "Same Substance as the Father"

In Greek Philosophy there were two kinds of substances .. that which God was made of .. and that which everything else was made of ... so in declaring Jesus was Homoousios Constantine was declaring that Jesus was God .. and not to many gainsayed the edict of the Emperor.

 

[Trailblazer]

The claim that one knows for certain that Jesus is God is simply false.. know one can know such a thing for certain.

Since no one has ever 'seen God' on that basis alone we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.
One would have to throw out most of the New Testament to maintain that Jesus is God, since many people saw Jesus in the NT.
We also know that those who saw the face of Jesus continued to live, so Jesus could not have been God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

That is aside from the fact that if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God since God is All-powerful, All-knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes, since Jesus was a man and no man can have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus is not God.

 

[jimb]

Below is my interpretation of those verses in John 1.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 3 is about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, the Word was made flesh because God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I suggest that you read other versions besides the King James translation, as it is too easy to misinterpret what was written by viewing through "a 21st Century lens".

Why do you think that verse 3 doesn't apply to the Word, when the previous two verses are clearly about the Word (Jesus)?

Here is how the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible explains this...

Jesus was God’s agent in creating all that exists (v. 10; Col 1:15–18; Rev 3:14)

John 1:10, "He was in the world, and the world was created by him, but the world did not recognize him." Clearly, this refers to Jesus.

As does this: Colossians 1:15-18, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him. He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him. He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things."


Revelation 3:14, "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen [Jesus], the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation".

The Word became flesh: "Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory—the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father." The Word is clearly Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

He (Jesus) was taken up in glory! God the Father did not appear in the flesh, was not vindicated by the Spirit, and clearly was not the person taken up in glory.

Your argument about God being manifested in the flesh is clearly a misunderstanding. The Word [Jesus] came from the Father. God cannot come from Himself!

John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known."

Again, no one has ever seen God (the Father). Clearly, since Jesus was seen and touched by many, many people, these verses do not refer to God, the Father, but to God, the Son.

 

[jimb]

John 1 does not support the Trinity ... and certainly the author of John did not believe that Jesus was God.

The first problem is the mistranslation of the term "Logos" ... which can mean "word" but in a religious context means the emmisary between Man and God.. John 1 does however argue for the pre-existence of Jesus .. which is something new.

So According to John . Jesus is The Logos .. a title like "the Adversary" but instead of being the tester of souls the job of the Logos is to bring God's word to humans .. and thus in this way Jesus is the Physical Manifestation of God's word .. "Is Gods Word" - speaks Gods word through the Holy Spirit.

So .. in the Beginnig was "The Logos" and The Logos was with God in Heaven (pre-incarnate) .. and the Logos was .. literally .. the physical manifestation of God's word. Hellenic / Platonic Philosophy .. with a little Gnostism in the mix.

None of the Early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was God .. they were subordinantists. .. believing that Jesus was subordinate to the Father. It was Tuterrlian around 200 AD who first spouted somethign resembling modern Trinity doctrine .. at the time was considered Heresy by the Church .. the squablles over the divinity of Christ raged throughout the 3rd century ... Those squabbles put to an end by Emperor Constantine who around 325 AD settled the issue declaring that Jesus was "Homoousios" .. which meant "Same Substance as the Father"

In Greek Philosophy there were two kinds of substances .. that which God was made of .. and that which everything else was made of ... so in declaring Jesus was Homoousios Constantine was declaring that Jesus was God .. and not to many gainsayed the edict of the Emperor.

Are you actually saying that Jesus was/is not God??? " is one of the most absurd things I have read in a long time. Didn't they ever read John's gospel? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Or if you prefer the KJV, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The same wording!)

None of the Early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was God??? Didn't they ever read these words???

Finally, re-read your own words: "Those squabbles put to an end by Emperor Constantine who around 325 AD settled the issue declaring that Jesus was "Homoousios" .. which meant "Same Substance as the Father"

In Greek Philosophy there were two kinds of substances .. that which God was made of .. and that which everything else was made of ... so in declaring Jesus was Homoousios Constantine was declaring that Jesus was God"

 

[Trailblazer]

I suggest that you read other versions besides the King James translation, as it is too easy to misinterpret what was written by viewing through "a 21st Century lens".

Why do you think that verse 3 doesn't apply to the Word, when the previous two verses are clearly about the Word (Jesus)?

Here is how the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible explains this...

Jesus was God’s agent in creating all that exists (v. 10; Col 1:15–18; Rev 3:14)

John 1:10, "He was in the world, and the world was created by him, but the world did not recognize him." Clearly, this refers to Jesus.

As does this: Colossians 1:15-18, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him. He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him. He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things."


Revelation 3:14, "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen [Jesus], the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation".

The Word became flesh: "Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory—the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father." The Word is clearly Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

He (Jesus) was taken up in glory! God the Father did not appear in the flesh, was not vindicated by the Spirit, and clearly was not the person taken up in glory.

Don't bother to post verses from Paul, since I don't believe everything he said is true, and I do not believe that Jesus had any part in creating the world.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Jesus is not God so Jesus did not create the the heaven and earth.

Your argument about God being manifested in the flesh is clearly a misunderstanding. The Word [Jesus] came from the Father. God cannot come from Himself!

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

Manifest meaning

To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal.
Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious.
Manifest is defined as to prove or make something clear.
Apparent to the senses, esp. that of sight, or to the mind; evident; obvious; clear; plain.
To make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal; evince.
To prove; be evidence of.
To appear to the senses; show itself.
Obvious to the understanding; apparent to the mind; easily apprehensible; plain; not obscure or hidden.
To show plainly; to make to appear distinctly, usually to the mind; to put beyond question or doubt; to display; to exhibit.
The definition of manifest is something that is clear to see or understand.
To become manifest; be revealed.

Manifest Meaning | Best 22 Definitions of Manifest

John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known."

Again, no one has ever seen God (the Father). Clearly, since Jesus was seen and touched by many, many people, these verses do not refer to God, the Father, but to God, the Son.

God is the Father.
Jesus is the Son of God.

There s no such thing as God, the Son (except in Trinitarian Christian doctrine.)

 

[jimb]

Since no one has ever 'seen God' on that basis alone we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.
One would have to throw out most of the New Testament to maintain that Jesus is God, since many people saw Jesus in the NT.
We also know that those who saw the face of Jesus continued to live, so Jesus could not have been God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

That is aside from the fact that if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God since God is All-powerful, All-knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes, since Jesus was a man and no man can have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus is not God.

It is not a good idea to base doctrine on a single out-of-contest sentence.

John 14:5-10, "Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

Clearly, JESUS IS GOD!!!
John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

 

[jimb]

Don't bother to post verses from Paul, since I don't believe everything he said is true, and I do not believe that Jesus had any part in creating the world.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Jesus is not God so Jesus did not create the the heaven and earth.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

Manifest meaning

To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal.
Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious.
Manifest is defined as to prove or make something clear.
Apparent to the senses, esp. that of sight, or to the mind; evident; obvious; clear; plain.
To make clear or evident; show plainly; reveal; evince.
To prove; be evidence of.
To appear to the senses; show itself.
Obvious to the understanding; apparent to the mind; easily apprehensible; plain; not obscure or hidden.
To show plainly; to make to appear distinctly, usually to the mind; to put beyond question or doubt; to display; to exhibit.
The definition of manifest is something that is clear to see or understand.
To become manifest; be revealed.

Manifest Meaning | Best 22 Definitions of Manifest

God is the Father.
Jesus is the Son of God.

There s no such thing as God, the Son (except in Trinitarian Christian doctrine.)

Since what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, there is no point in continuing this discussion. I believe God's won words, not yours.

 

[Trailblazer]

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

The reason Jesus said that is because Jesus was a mirror image of His Father, but an image is not that which it reflects.
When you look in the mirror and see yourself is that YOU in the mirror? No, it is your reflection.

Clearly, JESUS IS GOD!!!
John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

Jesus is not God and e never will be.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but Jesus was also a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was working in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since what you believe contradicts what the Bible says, there is no point in continuing this discussion. I believe God's won words, not yours.

I believe what the Bible says. You believe Christian dogma.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

No, there is no point continuing this discussion because you have been thoroughly indoctrinated, so you cannot think for yourself.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus is God. That is only Christian dogma that came about by a misinterpretation of Bible verses.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

 

[cataway]

1) Jesus, in John 10:30, said "The Father and I are one.”

This was followed by "The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death."

Your 2) is meaningless. The Father's name is clearly spelled out in the Bible. Look for it.

now lets read John 17:22

 

[jimb]

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

The reason Jesus said that is because Jesus was a mirror image of His Father, but an image is not that which it reflects.
When you look in the mirror and see yourself is that YOU in the mirror? No, it is your reflection.

Jesus is not God and e never will be.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God but Jesus was also a Servant of God, and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was able to do the works of the Father because the Father was working in Him. Jesus said He could do nothing by Himself.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus clearly differentiated Himself from the Father in the verses above and that alone means that Jesus could not be God.

You got one thing right: "Jesus was a manifestation of God." Manifestation refers to the act of making something visible or evident. In the Bible. Before Jesus appeared -- God in human form -- people had no idea who God actually was. Jesus made God visible.

John 14:7, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

IMHO you got everything else wrong. Jesus is God!!! He is a part of the Trinity. (The Holy Spirit is also God.)

"I and the Father are one" means exactly what it says! Not, two; one!

There is no point in our discussing this any further. I believe what the Bible clearly says and what God has made plain to me.

P.S. You should try a different translation. It is too easy to misinterpret the meaning of 17th Century Englyshe.

 

[jimb]

now lets read John 17:22

John 17:20-23, " “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[jimb]

I believe what the Bible says. You believe Christian dogma.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

No, there is no point continuing this discussion because you have been thoroughly indoctrinated, so you cannot think for yourself.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus is God. That is only Christian dogma that came about by a misinterpretation of Bible verses.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

I agree that there is no point continuing this discussion.

Your insults are meaningless, and clearly show how much good your faith does for you.

If you want to learn anything, read the two posts immediately above this one.

 

[Eli G]

... Before Jesus appeared -- God in human form -- people had no idea who God actually was. ...

Mmmh. NO.

Even pagans sorrounding Israelites knew who God actually was. Do you read the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

You got one thing right: "Jesus was a manifestation of God." Manifestation refers to the act of making something visible or evident. In the Bible. Before Jesus appeared -- God in human form -- people had no idea who God actually was. Jesus made God visible.

John 14:7, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus made God visible. That means that Jesus and God were TWO separate entities.

IMHO you got everything else wrong. Jesus is God!!! He is a part of the Trinity.

Jesus is not God and Jesus is not part of a Trinity.
The Trinity is a man-made Christian doctrine which is false.

Since no one has ever 'seen God' on that basis alone we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.
One would have to throw out most of the New Testament to maintain that Jesus is God, since many people saw Jesus in the NT.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

We also know that those who saw the face of Jesus continued to live, so Jesus could not have been God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

That is aside from the fact that if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God since God is All-powerful, All-knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes, since Jesus was a man and no man can have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus is not God.

(The Holy Spirit is also God.)

The Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

"I and the Father are one" means exactly what it says! Not, two; one!

The verse says "I and the Father are one."
The verse does not say "I and the Father are both God."
I and the Father means there are two separate entities, Jesus and God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

There is no point in our discussing this any further. I believe what the Bible clearly says and what God has made plain to me.

No, you do not believe what the Bible says, you believe on the doctrines of Christianity, which are false.
Yet another false Christian doctrine is that God communicates directly to ordinary men. God does not communicate directly with anyone except His Messengers such as Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that there is no point continuing this discussion.

Your insults are meaningless, and clearly show how much good your faith does for you.

If you want to learn anything, read the two posts immediately above this one.

No, there is no point continuing this discussion because you cannot respond to the verses I posted without admitting you are wrong.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is not my first rodeo.
Christians can take any Bible verse and twist its meaning to say what they want to believe.

It is pointless talking to most Christians who are so sure they are right and have no humility.
Thankfully, not all Christians are like that.

 

[jimb]

Mmmh. NO.

Even pagans sorrounding Israelites knew who God actually was. Do you read the Bible?

I read the Bible extensively -- every day.

People knew that God existed but nobody ever saw God until Jesus appeared on Earth, so how did anyone know who God actually was before then?

 

[jimb]

Jesus made God visible. That means that Jesus and God were TWO separate entities.

Jesus is not God and Jesus is not part of a Trinity.
The Trinity is a man-made Christian doctrine which is false.

Since no one has ever 'seen God' on that basis alone we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.
One would have to throw out most of the New Testament to maintain that Jesus is God, since many people saw Jesus in the NT.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

We also know that those who saw the face of Jesus continued to live, so Jesus could not have been God.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”

That is aside from the fact that if the Bible is correct in the way God is described, there is no way that Jesus can be God since God is All-powerful, All-knowing, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and Jesus did not have those attributes, since Jesus was a man and no man can have those attributes. That means that logically speaking Jesus is not God.

The Holy Spirit is not God, it is the Bounty of God.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

The verse says "I and the Father are one."
The verse does not say "I and the Father are both God."
I and the Father means there are two separate entities, Jesus and God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

No, you do not believe what the Bible says, you believe on the doctrines of Christianity, which are false.
Yet another false Christian doctrine is that God communicates directly to ordinary men. God does not communicate directly with anyone except His Messengers such as Jesus.

"Jesus made God visible. That means that Jesus and God were TWO separate entities." That is very poor reasoning. When people saw Jesus they saw God!

The Holy Spirit is God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the one triune God.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons sharing one essence/substance/nature."

The Trinity is false to you because you do not understand it! Your subjective opinion is just that.

Now, read this carefully, as many times as is necessary, until you understand it.: "I and the Father are one."

When you stop choosing words out of context from the Old Testament and the New Testament, then conflating them to derive some false doctrine, perhaps we can continue this discussion.

 

[jimb]

No, there is no point continuing this discussion because you cannot respond to the verses I posted without admitting you are wrong.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is not my first rodeo.
Christians can take any Bible verse and twist its meaning to say what they want to believe.

It is pointless talking to most Christians who are so sure they are right and have no humility.
Thankfully, not all Christians are like that.

Very funny -- not.

There is no point continuing this discussion because you cannot respond to the verses I posted without admitting you are wrong.

Christians, including yourself(!) can take any Bible verse and twist its meaning to say what they want to believe.
I agree 100% that It is pointless talking to some Christians who are so sure they are right and have no humility, including you!

 

[Trailblazer]

People knew that God existed but nobody ever saw God until Jesus appeared on Earth, so how did anyone know who God actually was before then?

You are wrong about that. People knew that God existed long before Jesus showed up on earth.
Ever heard of Zoroastrianism or Hinduism?

What came first Christianity or Zoroastrianism?

Founded more than 3,000 years ago, Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest monotheistic religions still in existence, predating Christianity and Islam by many centuries. Jul 1, 2022

Ancient but small in number, Zoroastrians confront depletion of ...​

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In fact, according to the facts of the history of Sanskrit and many ancient languages, the history of Sanatan Dharma in ancient India started about 13 thousand years before Christ, that is, 15 thousand years before today. Feb 3, 2023

What is Hinduism? How old is it? And what is its real History?​